Equality versus Freedom

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RWStanding
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Equality versus Freedom

Post by RWStanding »

Equality versus Freedom
Logically these two values stand together such that they are interdependent.
But the present day custom of defining values independently, and amalgamating that into a fractured whole, distorts reality.
The, belief in freedom may be affirmed but not in equality. This is a plain declaration of survival of and rule by the fittest.
More subtly, we have belief in freedom and in equal opportunity. That opportunity may be considered as the realization of a person’s potential. But what is missing is the purpose to be served. Anyone who subscribes to this arid ethic may be serving their own ends over others, in isolation from others, or to benefit others and the whole.
In essential conjunction with this, there is the significance given to the term, property. The whole world and its peoples may be considered as property, which is therefore the very matter about which we have ethics. The main categories of society hold property in contrary ways and use it for contrary purposes. Anarchistic society must essentially share it, since if they do not then the arrogation of property by one person or group will change society to tyranny. If however, people in such a anarchistic society affirm a wish to benefit each other and the whole, then society is moved towards altruism.
It is virtually impossible to define altruist society, other than on the basis that it has corporate control. By the fact of its control being socially based and not individually or by central government, means it must oppose globalisation, and create control from the grass roots of locality upwards.
Uncomfortable as it may be for supposed liberal globalists, who will at least oppose tyranny. Diversity is not achieved through the autonomous individual, but through social groups and localities. It is anarchistic and even pure chaos for the world to be open to everyone.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Equality versus Freedom

Post by RCSaunders »

RWStanding wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:03 am Equality versus Freedom
Logically these two values stand together such that they are interdependent.
But the present day custom of defining values independently, and amalgamating that into a fractured whole, distorts reality.
The, belief in freedom may be affirmed but not in equality. This is a plain declaration of survival of and rule by the fittest.
More subtly, we have belief in freedom and in equal opportunity. That opportunity may be considered as the realization of a person’s potential. But what is missing is the purpose to be served. Anyone who subscribes to this arid ethic may be serving their own ends over others, in isolation from others, or to benefit others and the whole.
In essential conjunction with this, there is the significance given to the term, property. The whole world and its peoples may be considered as property, which is therefore the very matter about which we have ethics. The main categories of society hold property in contrary ways and use it for contrary purposes. Anarchistic society must essentially share it, since if they do not then the arrogation of property by one person or group will change society to tyranny. If however, people in such a anarchistic society affirm a wish to benefit each other and the whole, then society is moved towards altruism.
It is virtually impossible to define altruist society, other than on the basis that it has corporate control. By the fact of its control being socially based and not individually or by central government, means it must oppose globalisation, and create control from the grass roots of locality upwards.
Uncomfortable as it may be for supposed liberal globalists, who will at least oppose tyranny. Diversity is not achieved through the autonomous individual, but through social groups and localities. It is anarchistic and even pure chaos for the world to be open to everyone.
Anarchy and chaos are only a worry to those who have no confidence in themselves to deal with a world they can't control. The notion of equality is meaningless, no two people in the entire world are exactly equal, and every individual is different from every other individual.
commonsense
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Re: Equality versus Freedom

Post by commonsense »

Equality isn’t correlated to freedom in anyway that might pit one against the other.

Equality v. Freedom is nonsensical.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Equality versus Freedom

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:17 pm Equality isn’t correlated to freedom in anyway that might pit one against the other.

Equality v. Freedom is nonsensical.
Actually, it depends on what one means by "equality."

To allow people to be equal, if they are or want to be, is not contrary to freedom. Or to ascribe to human beings equal ultimate value, regardless of their natural gifts and abilities is not an impairment to freedom either. We can all be of equal human value, even if some of us are different from others. No threat to freedom there.

So far, so good.

But to force people to become equal, when they are inherently not, is very much contrary to freedom. It means we have to cripple the abled, to make them equal to the disabled. We have to inhibit the ambitious, to make them equal with the lazy. We have to deny the specialness of the creative, and inflate the achievements of the uncreative. And we have to hobble the athletic, and make them equal to the unathletic. We have to deny any particular value to intelligence, so that the stupid will feel equal. And we have to steal from the productive in order to subsidize the unproductive.

That's why equality-of-outcome automatically issues in totalitarianism. To force equality to exist contrary to every reality of inequality, a society finds it needs total government domination of all areas of life, and total denial and suppression of every achievement that threatens the goal of equality. Less force than that will not even result in so much as the mere illusion of equality.

Ironically, this means such a society will need a totalitarian ruling class to impose equality on the populace. And there will need to be a secret police force to monitor and enforce this equality. And the populace must not be allowed any choice about equality...

Does that plan sound like it's no threat to freedom?
commonsense
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Re: Equality versus Freedom

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:32 pm
...we have to cripple the abled, to make them equal to the disabled. We have to inhibit the ambitious, to make them equal with the lazy. We have to deny the specialness of the creative, and inflate the achievements of the uncreative. And we have to hobble the athletic, and make them equal to the unathletic. We have to deny any particular value to intelligence, so that the stupid will feel equal. And we have to steal from the productive in order to subsidize the unproductive.
We’re starting in America by giving out participation awards to every competitor in our contests in schools.
commonsense
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Re: Equality versus Freedom

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:32 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:17 pm Equality isn’t correlated to freedom in anyway that might pit one against the other.

Equality v. Freedom is nonsensical.
Actually, it depends on what one means by "equality."

To allow people to be equal, if they are or want to be, is not contrary to freedom. Or to ascribe to human beings equal ultimate value, regardless of their natural gifts and abilities is not an impairment to freedom either. We can all be of equal human value, even if some of us are different from others. No threat to freedom there.

So far, so good.

But to force people to become equal, when they are inherently not, is very much contrary to freedom. It means we have to cripple the abled, to make them equal to the disabled. We have to inhibit the ambitious, to make them equal with the lazy. We have to deny the specialness of the creative, and inflate the achievements of the uncreative. And we have to hobble the athletic, and make them equal to the unathletic. We have to deny any particular value to intelligence, so that the stupid will feel equal. And we have to steal from the productive in order to subsidize the unproductive.

That's why equality-of-outcome automatically issues in totalitarianism. To force equality to exist contrary to every reality of inequality, a society finds it needs total government domination of all areas of life, and total denial and suppression of every achievement that threatens the goal of equality. Less force than that will not even result in so much as the mere illusion of equality.

Ironically, this means such a society will need a totalitarian ruling class to impose equality on the populace. And there will need to be a secret police force to monitor and enforce this equality. And the populace must not be allowed any choice about equality...

Does that plan sound like it's no threat to freedom?
Thanks, IC, for showing a clear connection between equality and freedom. Your words ring true throughout your post.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Equality versus Freedom

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:19 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:32 pm
...we have to cripple the abled, to make them equal to the disabled. We have to inhibit the ambitious, to make them equal with the lazy. We have to deny the specialness of the creative, and inflate the achievements of the uncreative. And we have to hobble the athletic, and make them equal to the unathletic. We have to deny any particular value to intelligence, so that the stupid will feel equal. And we have to steal from the productive in order to subsidize the unproductive.
We’re starting in America by giving out participation awards to every competitor in our contests in schools.
Yeah...isn't that amazing? It's a sort of defeat, though, because even a little kid knows that if everybody gets a prize, then in a real sense, nobody does. That is, that the value of any prize is in the fact that not everybody can have it, and those who do have been marked by doing something special...at least, that's how it's supposed to work.
Nick_A
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Re: Equality versus Freedom

Post by Nick_A »

RW
Equality versus Freedom
Logically these two values stand together such that they are interdependent.
But the present day custom of defining values independently, and amalgamating that into a fractured whole, distorts reality.
The, belief in freedom may be affirmed but not in equality. This is a plain declaration of survival of and rule by the fittest.
More subtly, we have belief in freedom and in equal opportunity. That opportunity may be considered as the realization of a person’s potential. But what is missing is the purpose to be served. Anyone who subscribes to this arid ethic may be serving their own ends over others, in isolation from others, or to benefit others and the whole.
This may provoke some growls but anyone appreciating the objective value of thought should consider what freedom and equality mean. Is the goal of freedom the desire to acquire prestige or something else? Does anyone really want equality or are they really looking for prestige in the world of equality? Do we really want a luke warm bath? So once again Simone Weil offers some food for thought:
"The combination of these two facts — the longing in the depth of the heart for absolute good, and the power, though only latent, of directing attention and love to a reality beyond the world and of receiving good from it — constitutes a link which attaches every man without exception to that other reality.

Whoever recognizes that reality recognizes also that link. Because of it, he holds every human being without any exception as something sacred to which he is bound to show respect.

This is the only possible motive for universal respect towards all human beings. Whatever formulation of belief or disbelief a man may choose to make, if his heart inclines him to feel this respect, then he in fact also recognizes a reality other than this world's reality. Whoever in fact does not feel this respect is alien to that other reality also." ~ Simone Weil
Is the goal of freedom to experience our significance or experience our insignificance in the context of what human "being" is capable of.

Humanity is becoming more obsessed with looking down and justifying opinions and the aims of prestige. less and less strive for the ability to are able to look up with conscious attention in awe and wonder. I would say the goal of freedom is becoming able to search for meaning beyond what the world offers and the goal of equality is to support those individuals able to consciously evolve beyond the domain of the Great Beast and provide the spiritual help which makes freedom possible. A scandalous opinion but if I can hide behind Simone, I can get away with it.
BNYC808
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Re: Equality versus Freedom

Post by BNYC808 »

I too, agree that a lot of this discussion depends on definitions and context.

In an ethical society, Equality and Freedom are two sides of the same coin. Individual freedom is protected in a society through a paradigm of equality. The concept of equality is what preserves freedom equally for each individual, which is to say, true equality means equal individual freedom, and nothing more.

The nature of reality and human existence is such that the individual has free will and can choose whether or not to work towards his or her own survival. An individual can choose to use his or her rational mind - or to not use it. Being that the rational mind is an individual’s means of production and therefore, survival, means that at the root of the individual’s right to their own life is their right to their mind and it’s productive activity. If the protective activity of an individual’s mind is the property of another individual or group, then that person is a slave.

In an organized ethical society, the role of the government is to protect and uphold this reality of individual existence, and ensure that each individual has the right to his or her own life. The societal value is individual freedom. The means of achieving this value is to establish laws of equality.

Laws of equality protect each individual’s right to his or her own life from the infringement of another individual. Each individual in the society can act, think, and work freely towards his or her own survival and betterment, as long as their actions do not impede another individual’s right to their own life. For example, a law of equality would prohibit property theft in any form, whether explicit or not, because to take property from an individual is to rob him or her of the product of their own mind, and therefore would infringe upon his or her right to their own life.

Note- equality is only valid insofar as it upholds individual freedoms equally for everyone. Ethical equality does NOT work towards equal outcomes and results. Outcomes and results are the domain of individual choice of thoughts and actions and their resulting natural consequences. This is a fact of reality and is so reflected in an ethical society. A society which artificially seeks equal outcomes and results, is undoubtedly bound to completely trample individual freedoms as well as human rights.
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