How can I know right from wrong?

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commonsense
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:09 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:40 am

Because unlike you I do not see that everyone has their own individual consciences.

And whilst you hold this belief, then it 'has to' be true, right, and correct, for you?
Drop the sarcasm.

When you said that you “do not see...” you said as much as you don’t believe...

So, whilst you do not see, it has to be correct for you, eh?

commonsense
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:20 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:46 am
commonsense wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:58 pm
An atheist’s conscience wouldn’t require observance of such rules.
But a so called "atheist's" "conscience" would require observance of rules, correct?
An atheist’s conscience wouldn’t require observation of religious rules.
Age wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:46 am
By the way, to me there are NO rules in Life, and as such there are NO laws. Obviously, of course, other than those human being made up rules and laws. There is, however, one Lore, which Conscience, Itself, dictates, and which if followed, then we would all already be live in peace and harmony together. But this is for another discussion.
That would be utopia. :)

gaffo
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:36 pm

Age wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:02 am


Was it you who wrote something similar to; 'that from birth we already know what is right and wrong', and therefore we just choose to ignore it/kill it? If it was you, then I agree with you here.
probably, that is what i believe, but someone else on this forum may have said the above - rather than me. i don't rem posting the above in particular, but may have - i've been here for 2.5 yrs so.........
Age wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:02 am
Now, to know what 'Conscience' Itself is, just comes naturally with KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING ones' own Self.
gaffo wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm
we know folks that did the latter - Pol Pot/Hilter/Stalin/etc.......all really at war with themselves - externalized to war with the world.
We also know that absolutely EVERY adult ignores/kills Conscience in one way or another because if they did not, then we would already be living in Peace and Harmony (or Heaven).
gaffo wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm
and its not pretty.
You are right, a lot of this "world" that we live in now, in the days of when this is being written, is not pretty at all. This is because adult human beings do not follow their Conscience, instead they go after and follow what money can get for them.
agreed.

gaffo
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:48 pm

Age wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:04 am
commonsense wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:22 am
Age wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:59 am
But some people have absolutely no pride at all in what they do. These people also have absolutely no shame at all in what they do. The shame they get or feel comes from "others".
Those who have no shame, have no conscience.
Or, do they actually have a Conscience, but they just choose to ignore It?
commonsence is right here:

Those who have no shame, have no conscience

Hitler/Pol Pot/all Pychopaths have no shame, and cannot fell it, because they killed their conscience (they were born with a conscience and were normal kids like all other kids - but sometime before adulthood - they did not have their "moral genes" activated (child abuse is the usual reason - result is one of two: either the genes are activated anyway, and the kid grows up internalizing his/her experience and has a low self asteem and self destructive - or the genes are not activated, and the kid becomes a monster with a false self esteem, and at war with all other - loving to kill and destroy all outside of themselves (they are just tranfurning their self hate toward all others)..........its a "fight for flight" response to the world after being abused as a kid.

folks like Marilin Monro/many "Rockers"/etc were "flight" and became their own self enemy.

assholes like Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler were "fight" in thier response to the same abuse - and made the rest of us pay the price of their abuse. they hate themselves but are too cowardly to face it,and instead hate all others instead. we call these folks assholes. Trump of course is one of these.

gaffo
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:03 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:50 pm
Age wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:04 am
commonsense wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:22 am


Those who have no shame, have no conscience.
Or, do they actually have a Conscience, but they just choose to ignore It?
No.
concise and to the point.

kudos

gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:08 pm

commonsense wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:16 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:17 am
commonsense wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:50 pm


No.
Is this an absolute fact? Or, just your view on this?
It is my view that this is absolutely true because it is impossible to be otherwise. I thought that this was obvious.

To ignore conscience is to defeat the very purpose of the thing. Conscience without its purpose cannot be conscience.
I don't understand, but welcome understanding. can you clarify for the thick-minded (me)?

gaffo
Posts: 3205
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:20 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:07 pm
The touchstone for moral behaviour is freedom.
fully disagree.


Freedom is worth nothing without Responsibility tied to it.

without the latter you have Freedom, like 1917 Russia, 2018 ISIS, etc............anarchy - ya each as the freedom to do stuff - including raping pilaging/etc.

great.

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:07 pm
For instance if children are not educated they are less free when they are adults as they are either ill-equipped to make choices or they have fewer choices than their better informed contemporaries. Ill-educated adults will be unable to assess which political leaders are sane and which are insane.
again, disagee fully.


give me any uneducated farmer from any century - over the book learn nuclear physict Edward Teller (ya sure lets use fussion bombs to make the panama canal.

book smart dolts line the streets! and they could not pick a "sane candidate" if their life depended upon it!

why, because that is required is Wisdome! not Education.

there are trillions of educated dolts all over the place!!!!!!!!!!!! fuck! just look at US and UK - Trump and Boris! - no need to say more.

Wisdom is the fix for electing same candidates - and guess what, wisdom is not related to education - in ANY way! - so the number of foolish uneducated farmers = the number of foolish Nuclear Scientists (ed Tellers).

give me a wise uneducated farmer to choose my leader, over an educated fool!

everytime! (and yes i am educated)

gaffo
Posts: 3205
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:29 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:05 am
commonsense wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 pm
Age wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:09 am


Did you know that words mean different things to different people?

What is the purpose of conscience, to you?

Also, if the word 'conscience' refers to some thing that tells us what the right thing to do in Life is, then by looking at the way adult human beings behave, in the days when this is being written, then there is not much actual evidence regarding them listening to AND following Conscience, Itself.
Bazinga! I have been conflating conscience with functioning conscience. Better would have been: conscience without its purpose cannot be a functioning conscience.

Functional or not, the purpose of conscience is to guide humans to do the right thing. Certainly, not everyone follows their conscience.
I do not know an adult human being who always follows the(ir) Conscience.

So, we agree that (the) Conscience guides human beings to do the right thing, and that that is Its actual purpose.

Do we also agree that there is just one Conscience? Or do you say that every human being has their very own individual different conscience?
I know you did not ask me, but would like to answer.

most folks follow their conscience, the 1-percent (psychopaths - Pot/etc) do not (they had a conscience 20 yrs prior, but killed it by age of 18 or so - they act outside of any conscience, in fact they act in self interest alone (being in "fight" (the world) mode).

the rest of us - the 99 percent follow and have the same conscience, as all social animals on Earth.

there is only one conscience, which is an instinct for empathy, in order to foster the collective's chance of survival in a hostal world made up of Lions, crockadiles and Hyenas.

gaffo
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:41 pm

commonsense wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:58 pm
Consider this: there are Muslims and Jews who avoid eating pork because their religion says so and their conscience dictates that they adhere to religious rules. An atheist’s conscience wouldn’t require observance of such rules.
not so black and white.

consider this, if the Jew or Muslim was found in the down and out, and a Christian offered then pork stew - would they deny it out of religious observances, or eat the stew out of the spirit of charity (stranger offering stew to the Jew in need).

I don't know what the Jew/Muslim would do - up the them - but their Faiths would both deny and allow them to eat.

the world is not so black and white, in fact it has trillions shades of gray, and no pure white nor black.

gaffo
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:48 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:46 am

By the way, to me there are NO rules in Life, and as such there are NO laws. Obviously, of course, other than those human being made up rules and laws. There is, however, one Lore, which Conscience, Itself, dictates, and which if followed, then we would all already be live in peace and harmony together. But this is for another discussion.
Tell me more, if willing, i like your mindset here and may be your first disciple.

"Gospel of gaffo disciple of Age".................

commonsense
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:02 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:08 pm
commonsense wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:16 pm
Age wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:17 am


Is this an absolute fact? Or, just your view on this?
It is my view that this is absolutely true because it is impossible to be otherwise. I thought that this was obvious.

To ignore conscience is to defeat the very purpose of the thing. Conscience without its purpose cannot be conscience.
I don't understand, but welcome understanding. can you clarify for the thick-minded (me)?
I see now that it could’ve been helpful if I had captured 1 or 2 more posts going back. So, I’ll try to clarify here.

“It is my view...”: I was trying to say that it’s a fact that, no, people do not simply ignore their conscience—that’s just not possible because to ignore conscience is to kill conscience, hence their is no conscience to be ignored. I was claiming that you can’t ignore what you’ve already killed. This claim is easily defeated, but that’s what I said.

“To ignore conscience...”: I should have said that to ignore conscience is to disregard the purpose, which is to guide us to do the right thing, and without its purpose, a conscience cannot be a functioning conscience.

gaffo
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Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:04 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:20 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:46 am
commonsense wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:58 pm
An atheist’s conscience wouldn’t require observance of such rules.
But a so called "atheist's" "conscience" would require observance of rules, correct?
An atheist’s conscience wouldn’t require observation of religious rules.
not so Sir. an atheist should know the rule of Judaism/Kosher - and etc, before judging a Jew's actions.

their "rules" are a part of their culture (not their conscience) - if their rule conflicted with thier conscience, they would (if a good person AND not a coward - would act in toward their conscience, and throw out the rule) - and a smart athiest will educated himself about Judaism (which i personally have for 30 yr now - and an Athiest too BTW)..............just saying an dumb pigheaded Athiest shouting from the roof of his trailer home about the evils of Jews and Jewish Rules.............while knowing nothing of Judaism - is a full bore foolish dick.

BTW the Torah is not the greatest Jewish work (yes i know blasphemy! - nor did moses write it -yes burn me, i am a heretic per Judasim!..........

Amos, Job and Jonah are the the three greatest works of the Old Testament - offer more wisdom by order of 10 than the lesser not quite crap (after you remove the politics - "jews have the land because those living there before us were evil and only worthy of death/replacement by us" torah

commonsense
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:15 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:41 pm
commonsense wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:58 pm
Consider this: there are Muslims and Jews who avoid eating pork because their religion says so and their conscience dictates that they adhere to religious rules. An atheist’s conscience wouldn’t require observance of such rules.
not so black and white.

consider this, if the Jew or Muslim was found in the down and out, and a Christian offered then pork stew - would they deny it out of religious observances, or eat the stew out of the spirit of charity (stranger offering stew to the Jew in need).
I think the Jew or Muslim would eat pork and subsequently feel remorseful. They might rationalize that their religion would permit them to eat pork in order to survive. But they would recognize their rationalization for what it was: an excuse to break the rules, and thusly feel uncomfortable anyway about breaking those rules.

commonsense
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:22 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:04 pm
commonsense wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:20 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:46 am


But a so called "atheist's" "conscience" would require observance of rules, correct?
An atheist’s conscience wouldn’t require observation of religious rules.
not so Sir. an atheist should know the rule of Judaism/Kosher - and etc, before judging a Jew's actions.

their "rules" are a part of their culture (not their conscience) - if their rule conflicted with thier conscience, they would (if a good person AND not a coward - would act in toward their conscience, and throw out the rule) - and a smart athiest will educated himself about Judaism (which i personally have for 30 yr now - and an Athiest too BTW)..............just saying an dumb pigheaded Athiest shouting from the roof of his trailer home about the evils of Jews and Jewish Rules.............while knowing nothing of Judaism - is a full bore foolish dick.

BTW the Torah is not the greatest Jewish work (yes i know blasphemy! - nor did moses write it -yes burn me, i am a heretic per Judasim!..........

Amos, Job and Jonah are the the three greatest works of the Old Testament - offer more wisdom by order of 10 than the lesser not quite crap (after you remove the politics - "jews have the land because those living there before us were evil and only worthy of death/replacement by us" torah
I am not claiming that an atheist has no reason to be educated about religion. I am only saying that whatever rules an atheist’s conscience would have him follow, those rules would not be based purely on religious principles.

Shalom!

gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:36 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:02 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:08 pm
commonsense wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:16 pm


It is my view that this is absolutely true because it is impossible to be otherwise. I thought that this was obvious.

To ignore conscience is to defeat the very purpose of the thing. Conscience without its purpose cannot be conscience.
I don't understand, but welcome understanding. can you clarify for the thick-minded (me)?
I see now that it could’ve been helpful if I had captured 1 or 2 more posts going back. So, I’ll try to clarify here.

“It is my view...”: I was trying to say that it’s a fact that, no, people do not simply ignore their conscience—that’s just not possible because to ignore conscience is to kill conscience, hence their is no conscience to be ignored. I was claiming that you can’t ignore what you’ve already killed. This claim is easily defeated, but that’s what I said.

“To ignore conscience...”: I should have said that to ignore conscience is to disregard the purpose, which is to guide us to do the right thing, and without its purpose, a conscience cannot be a functioning conscience.
thanks for reply, and i guess i'm just a dumbshit, i still do not follow.

my view:

99 percent of us have a conscience, all of us ignore it at some time - some more than others. 1 percent of us HAD a conscience, but not longer do - the Hitler of the world (most of them are just "regular" folks - like you a me, not mass muderers - they just lack a conscience and live with wives/husbands that should know better but for there reasons are in denial - and live and work the 9 to 5 like the rest of us) but not friend material, I got my radar, so can spot even the slickest sob - presenting himself as the most understanding......................Ahole in fact - but they do Mimic (without feeling) - so none of my friends are "friends"(SOB pychopaths), but met a couple over the decades that presented themselves as potential friends.


I've ignored my conscience many times - and each time i convicted myself for cowardice - I had my conscience, and ignored it out of fear (look to the video of the 75 yr old guy pushed by the animal-thug-asshole-pussy-SOB-shitass cops in Buffelo - there is that one guy (who has a conscience, and bends down to start the check the guy,...............then the other asshole cop behind himgrabs him back-shirt and pulls him up .................................not here is a "life moment" (we all have them --------------- when you are tested! do you do right or fail the test and be a pussy........................well Cop in question has a conscience (if he did not - he would not have bent down to check the guy he shoved - so we know he has a conscience, but sadly the world is not so benign, there was the "test"..............and so he failed to face the other thug COP that pulled him of, and then offer a hand to the old guy.

instead he played pussy - via pear pressure of the other cop that pulled him up by the back, ingnored his conscience! followed the easy way- the guy they pulled him up (his moral escape pod maybe?)......and then walked on like all good robots..................

I hope his actions (inaction - in not telling the guy that pulled him up to fuck himself and then doing the right thing, helping the guy he shoved) haught him till the day he dies - as it should via his conscience, and MAYBE nextime he wil not play the PUSSY - as he did this week.

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