How can I know right from wrong?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Age
Posts: 5125
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by Age »

commonsense wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 7:13 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:36 am ...how does one know what their conscience actually IS?
Conscience, simply put, is a collection of moral standards. As such, it is a source of shame for the individual.

But how does one know what constitutes his own set of morals? Retrospectively is certainly one way. Introspection is another. Shame is the measure that determines the contents of one’s list of what’s good and what’s not.
But some people have absolutely no pride at all in what they do. These people also have absolutely no shame at all in what they do. The shame they get or feel comes from "others".

Also, because shame can come far more strongly "others" and more specifically from knowing what "other's" think, then could this be a sign or clue that the conscience in one is the exact same in "another"?

Is it possible that there is just One right and wrong, which we are ALL intuitive to, and which comes the exact same conscience that we ALL share but which we all refer to as our own conscience?
surreptitious57
Posts: 4217
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Age wrote:
Is it possible that there is just One right and wrong which we are ALL intuitive to and which comes the exact same conscience that we ALL
share but which we all refer to as our own conscience ?
That is possible but I think free will might be a problem here as we value our independence and like to think of ourselves as individuals
We would therefore have to start thinking as a collective whole rather than as separate parts of that whole
Even then we would still have free will so long as it exists there is no guarantee that we could think as one
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 2204
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by Sculptor »

treesforlife242 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 am Currently, there is no way to define if actions are moral. Current day morality originate from the Bible’s basic rules, such as no killing and being kind.
Seriously - do you really think this is where morality comes from? I do not see a commandment to be kind, BTW.
This is not based of logic, so how are we able to define good and bad. For example take hanging and quartering, why do we define that as bad? My opinion is that the 18th Century people felt it wrong not out of sympathy as they were criminals. Rather they were looking out their own health. They felt, if they were in that situation they would want a quick death. For example if they were caught in a criminal act they would want their suffering to be as little as possible, or they shouldn’t kill as it means someone might kill you. Therefore, the definition of bad, is anything which would make your life quality worse.
Age
Posts: 5125
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by Age »

surreptitious57 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:30 pm
Age wrote:
Is it possible that there is just One right and wrong which we are ALL intuitive to and which comes the exact same conscience that we ALL
share but which we all refer to as our own conscience ?
That is possible but I think free will might be a problem here as we value our independence and like to think of ourselves as individuals
Free will does not cause any problem at all nor any issue at all with me, that is; from the way I define and see what 'free will' is.
surreptitious57 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:30 pmWe would therefore have to start thinking as a collective whole rather than as separate parts of that whole
Even then we would still have free will so long as it exists there is no guarantee that we could think as one
But what I am talking about is NOT about thinking as one at all. In fact it could actually be the opposite.
surreptitious57
Posts: 4217
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Age wrote:
But what I am talking about is NOT about thinking as one at all
You will have to explain how we can all share the same conscience and not all think as one
Also free will allows us to think differently to each other but you dont think it is a problem
So what is your definition of free will ?
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by gaffo »

Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:36 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:05 pm
treesforlife242 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 am Currently, there is no way to define if actions are moral. Current day morality originate from the Bible’s basic rules, such as no killing and being kind. This is not based of logic, so how are we able to define good and bad. For example take hanging and quartering, why do we define that as bad? My opinion is that the 18th Century people felt it wrong not out of sympathy as they were criminals. Rather they were looking out their own health. They felt, if they were in that situation they would want a quick death. For example if they were caught in a criminal act they would want their suffering to be as little as possible, or they shouldn’t kill as it means someone might kill you. Therefore, the definition of bad, is anything which would make your life quality worse.
interesting post.

IMO, motives are moral, not actions.

per what is moral, one only needs to follow their conscience, and their motives will be moral.
Does your conscience tell you to go to work to make money?

Do you work for money because you are following your conscience, and so your motives are being moral? Or, do you chase after and follow money for some other reason other than your conscience, and so your motives are not being moral?

What are your motives to gain more money?
no per the above. I work for food and shelter nothing more.

i don't like working, but i do like food and shelter and so i work to have the latter.

Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:36 am Also, how does one know what their conscience actually IS?
well that is THE QUESTION isn't it? might as well ask how can one become Wise.

the answer, self knowledge (actualization) ......a life long strive in our life is it not?

and a worthy struggle - to know yourself.

and the result is to know your conscience and to follow it rather than ignore/kill it.

we know folks that did the latter - Pol Pot/Hilter/Stalin/etc.......all really at war with themselves - externalized to war with the world.

and its not pretty.
commonsense
Posts: 2574
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by commonsense »

Age wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:59 am But some people have absolutely no pride at all in what they do. These people also have absolutely no shame at all in what they do. The shame they get or feel comes from "others".
Those who have no shame, have no conscience.
Age
Posts: 5125
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by Age »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm
Age wrote:
But what I am talking about is NOT about thinking as one at all
You will have to explain how we can all share the same conscience and not all think as one
'Thinking' is an individual thing or a collective of some but not of all, which, by the way, 'thinking' can also be right or wrong, true or false, correct or incorrect.

'Knowing', however, although can be an individual thing it is actually also a collective of all as One thing, which, by the way, can only be true, right, and/or correct.

When what is agreed and accepted by ALL, then that knowledge, which is also absolutely True, Right, and Correct is KNOWN, or for sure.

When thee same conscious becomes revealed or is made known, then it becomes knowledge known by ALL as One.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm Also free will allows us to think differently to each other but you dont think it is a problem
Is there a 'problem' anywhere here? There is none to me.

To me, an individual human body is born in a different place and a different time period than EVERY other individual human body. Each and every one of these individual human bodies will grow up experiencing different things, from each and every other human body. Experiences produce thoughts, so ALL thoughts come from experiences. Therefore, because ever body experiences different things then there will be, within each and every different human body, a uniquely different set of thoughts. These uniquely different experiences, which each unique and different body experiences, is the very reason WHY every one is a uniquely differently thinking individual human being.
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:46 pm So what is your definition of free will ?
To me, 'free will' is just having the ability to freely choose whatever we each individually want to choose. We are ALL free to choose whatever we want to choose to think, and do. However, in saying that, we are ALL limited by the number of things we have to choose from.

To me, free will does not necessarily allow us to think differently. We ALL are going to think differently no matter what. This is because of the way we gain our thoughts. As children we have no choice in what we experience, therefore we have no choice in actually thinking differently.

See, when who and what 'we', human beings, individually actually are is better understood, and how thinking is associated with the brain, which is obviously individual and uniquely different, and how this is different from 'knowing', which is associated with thee One Mind, which is who and what 'we', collectively, Truly are, and all of this is much better understood, then ALL-OF-THIS starts uniting and fitting together, perfectly by the way, so that then SEEING/UNDERSTANDING thee actual Truth of things starts becoming CRYSTAL CLEARER all of the time.
Age
Posts: 5125
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by Age »

gaffo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:36 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:05 pm

interesting post.

IMO, motives are moral, not actions.

per what is moral, one only needs to follow their conscience, and their motives will be moral.
Does your conscience tell you to go to work to make money?

Do you work for money because you are following your conscience, and so your motives are being moral? Or, do you chase after and follow money for some other reason other than your conscience, and so your motives are not being moral?

What are your motives to gain more money?
no per the above. I work for food and shelter nothing more.

i don't like working, but i do like food and shelter and so i work to have the latter.
Do you actually need as much food and as much shelter as you have, and keep wanting and thus keep working for?

gaffo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm
Age wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:36 am Also, how does one know what their conscience actually IS?
well that is THE QUESTION isn't it? might as well ask how can one become Wise.
Well THE ANSWER is very simple and very easy, indeed.

1. Define what the word 'conscience' means, to one's self.
2. Find out what is agreed upon and accepted.
3. If 'what is agreed upon and accepted' is by ALL, then THAT ANSWER is actually what thee absolute Truth IS.

Also, how one can become Truly Wise is by just remaining completely OPEN, to continually keep discovering and/or learning.

'To be Wise', is to just realize that by being able to learn more, then one obviously becomes Wiser. One individual is obviously not going to relatively know that much at all, in relation to how much there is to know in the Universe Itself, therefore, 'to be Wise' is to just remember that the best, (quickest, simplest, and easiest) way to learn more is to just remain completely OPEN. And, to remain completely OPEN is best done by NEVER assuming nor believing that you already know what is true, right, and/or correct.
gaffo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm the answer, self knowledge (actualization) ......a life long strive in our life is it not?
Not necessarily so.

Obviously if one obtains the answer to, 'Who am 'I'?', before their life is over, then to KNOW Thy Self, (or Self-actualization), is not a life long process at all.
gaffo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm and a worthy struggle - to know yourself.

and the result is to know your conscience and to follow it rather than ignore/kill it.
Was it you who wrote something similar to; 'that from birth we already know what is right and wrong', and therefore we just choose to ignore it/kill it? If it was you, then I agree with you here.

Now, to know what 'Conscience' Itself is, just comes naturally with KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING ones' own Self.
gaffo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm we know folks that did the latter - Pol Pot/Hilter/Stalin/etc.......all really at war with themselves - externalized to war with the world.
We also know that absolutely EVERY adult ignores/kills Conscience in one way or another because if they did not, then we would already be living in Peace and Harmony (or Heaven).
gaffo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm and its not pretty.
You are right, a lot of this "world" that we live in now, in the days of when this is being written, is not pretty at all. This is because adult human beings do not follow their Conscience, instead they go after and follow what money can get for them.
Age
Posts: 5125
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by Age »

commonsense wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 12:22 am
Age wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:59 am But some people have absolutely no pride at all in what they do. These people also have absolutely no shame at all in what they do. The shame they get or feel comes from "others".
Those who have no shame, have no conscience.
Or, do they actually have a Conscience, but they just choose to ignore It?
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 4628
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

treesforlife242 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 am Currently, there is no way to define if actions are moral. Current day morality originate from the Bible’s basic rules, such as no killing and being kind. This is not based of logic, so how are we able to define good and bad.

For example take hanging and quartering, why do we define that as bad? My opinion is that the 18th Century people felt it wrong not out of sympathy as they were criminals. Rather they were looking out their own health. They felt, if they were in that situation they would want a quick death. For example if they were caught in a criminal act they would want their suffering to be as little as possible, or they shouldn’t kill as it means someone might kill you. Therefore, the definition of bad, is anything which would make your life quality worse.
Theistic morality from God is pseudo-morality, not morality-proper.

How does one know truth from falsehood?
To do so, one need to know what is the truth, knowledge and fact of reality.
To get to knowledge, one set up a system to cognize Justified True Beliefs. [JTB -Gettier noted].

How does one know right from wrong in terms of Morality?
To do so, one need to know what is the moral truth, knowledge and fact of morality within reality.
To get to moral knowledge/fact, one set up a moral system to cognize Justified True Moral Beliefs. [JTMB -Gettier noted].

Justified True Moral Beliefs can only be used as GUIDEs only and the individuals has to develop their moral competence to strive to act as close as possible to the GUIDEs.

Re the example in the OP.
The moral fact is;
"No human shall kill another human"
which is only to be used as a GUIDE only.

Being human, there will be humans who will kill other humans [psychopaths, serial genocidal murderers].

Because the moral fact,
"No human shall kill another human"
is the imperative objective,
the individuals and humanity will have to find solutions for future generations where are no humans with potential to kill at all, e.g. ensuring no one is born as a potential killer during his whole life even when subjected to vulnerable nurturing factors.

As for the current generations, it is too late to deal with the inherent potentials of evilness, humanity will have find solutions using foolproof methods to rewire the mind of the evil prone, if not, rely on effective laws to deter or reduce killings from happening to the optimal.
commonsense
Posts: 2574
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by commonsense »

Age wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:04 am
commonsense wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 12:22 am
Age wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:59 am But some people have absolutely no pride at all in what they do. These people also have absolutely no shame at all in what they do. The shame they get or feel comes from "others".
Those who have no shame, have no conscience.
Or, do they actually have a Conscience, but they just choose to ignore It?
No.
nothing
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:32 pm

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by nothing »

treesforlife242 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 am Currently, there is no way to define if actions are moral.
Presupposes the existence of (some) morality.
treesforlife242 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 am Current day morality originate from the Bible’s basic rules, such as no killing and being kind. This is not based of logic, so how are we able to define good and bad.
The two Edenic trees are based on logic:
one causes living (forever) and the
other causes death (over death).

Logically, if one eats from the tree that causes death,
one is liable to die. If one eats from the tree that causes life,
one is liable to live.

The problem is humanity doesn't know what these two trees are, as
one of them is real 'knowledge' (to know) and the other is not (to believe).
These are the "roots": (to know) and (to believe). If/when you add in
the "operators" (all) and (not) you "logically" derive the solution(s):
(to know) all (thus) not (to believe) approaches all-knowing, god-or-no-god
(to believe) all (thus) not (to know) approaches all-belief-based ignorance(s)
causing/sustaining and/or otherwise impeding on the cessation of all manner
of human suffering.

The roots are reflected in/as the two legs, whereas
the operators are reflected in/as the two arms.
There are two possible directions from the apex of a pentagram,
just as there are two possible "orientations" one may be in
concerning which tree they chose to eat from.
treesforlife242 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 am For example take hanging and quartering, why do we define that as bad? My opinion is that the 18th Century people felt it wrong not out of sympathy as they were criminals. Rather they were looking out their own health. They felt, if they were in that situation they would want a quick death. For example if they were caught in a criminal act they would want their suffering to be as little as possible, or they shouldn’t kill as it means someone might kill you. Therefore, the definition of bad, is anything which would make your life quality worse.
That is a terrible definition of "bad". Any " believer " can simply " believe "
someone else is responsible for their own quality of life being poor.
This is actually why Adam got kicked out of Eden: he could not account
for his own actions thus BLAMED the women. If you look at Islam, you will see
women wearing the hijab/niqab/burqa. That is the original sin of the man
being blamed/scapegoated onto the women because " believing " men
religiously " believe " that it is the woman's fault he can not control himself,
hence women in Islam are blamed for being raped, instead of the man.

Islam also happens to be the global root of Nazism/fascism/socialism, as
it takes a " believer " to " believe " themselves superior to another (Nazism)
and/or others are inferior to themselves. Thus in any conceivable
"believer vs. unbeliever" situation(s) (as Islam actively perpetuates)
all Nazis are pinned to the side of the " believers ".
surreptitious57
Posts: 4217
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Age wrote:
When what is agreed and accepted by ALL then that knowledge which is also absolutely True Right and Correct is KNOWN
But is it not also possible that everyone can agree on something which is not absolutely true or right or correct ?
And if it is possible then how can anyone actually differentiate between what is absolutely true and what is not ?
surreptitious57
Posts: 4217
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: How can I know right from wrong?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Age wrote:
Experiences produce thoughts so ALL thoughts come from experiences
All thoughts only come from experience if you class imagination as experience
But experience does not pertain to something that has been thought but done
Post Reply