What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 4128
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Lacewing »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:31 pm It''s none of your business to reject an idea whose utility you don't understand.
So, according to you, people who reject the god-idea don't understand the utility of it.
Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:31 pm I don't "reject" any ideas - rejection is an active behaviour.
And you don't reject anything.

:lol:
Skepdick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick »

Lacewing wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:42 pm So, according to you, people who reject the god-idea don't understand the utility of it.
Well do you? What is it that you are rejecting and what is its utility?
Lacewing wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:42 pm And you don't reject anything.
What experiment would I have to perform to determine whether I do or don't?

What's the empirical/behavioural consequence of "rejecting" or "accepting" an idea"?
uwot
Posts: 5028
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:19 pmAgnosticism is the default position - anybody who falls off the wagon and rationalises their belief OR disbelief is "stupid" from an epistemic viewpoint.
I dunno; I reckon I could make a case for atheism being the default position - agnostic atheism, as per the cartoon you posted if you prefer. I don't think anyone would have to make a point of not believing in something for which there is no evidence were it not for others insisting such a creature exists.
Skepdick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:50 pm I dunno; I reckon I could make a case for atheism being the default position - agnostic atheism, as per the cartoon you posted if you prefer.
The default epistemic position is the principle of maximum entropy - all hypotheses are equally probable.

That aside, agnostic atheism os only half of atheism. The other half is gnostic atheism.
Much like half of theism is agnostic theism and the other half is gnostic theism.

In both camps (theism and atheism) the gnostics are idiots, because the god-idea is neither testable nor falsifiable. Neither belief nor disbelief is possible.

That is: I would side with an agnostic theist before I side with a gnostic atheist, which is completely expected given my over-index on epistemology.
uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:50 pm I don't think anyone would have to make a point of not believing in something for which there is no evidence were it not for others insisting such a creature exists.
OK. I don't know if I believe in God or not. How would I find out?

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for "belief" anyway?
Last edited by Skepdick on Thu May 14, 2020 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 4128
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Lacewing »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:46 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:42 pm So, according to you, people who reject the god-idea don't understand the utility of it.
Well do you? What is it that you are rejecting and what is its utility?
My understanding is that it varies for everyone who finds utility in it. One person's utility is not another's. And some people don't find utility in it at all. It's like ANY idea or belief in life.
Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:46 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:42 pm And you don't reject anything.
What's the empirical/behavioural consequence of "rejecting" or "accepting" an idea"?
You tell me. You're the one who claimed that people who reject the god-idea are stupid.

If you don't reject anything (as you say), then does that mean you accept everything? Or are you perpetually floating in some in-between state and spewing out your nonsense claims from pure mindlessness?
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 2183
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 5:44 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 5:35 pm "Atheist Philosophy", is whatever philosophy a particular atheist has. Could be almost anything as long as it includes some kind of skepticism enough to have thought about the idea of god and rejected it.
It's not the rejection of the god-idea that makes atheists stupid. By rejecting the God-idea they also reject agnosticism.
It's always nice, once in a while, to check to see why I put you on ignore.
It's that epistemically, they shoot themselves in the face with a shotgun.

https://unvarnishedveritas.wordpress.co ... inference/
Skepdick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick »

Lacewing wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:10 pm My understanding is that it varies for everyone who finds utility in it. One person's utility is not another's. And some people don't find utility in it at all. It's like ANY idea or belief in life.
Ok but there is a distinct difference between indifference to an idea and a rejection of an idea.

I am indifferent to archeology, but I don't reject it.
Lacewing wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:10 pm If you don't reject anything (as you say), then does that mean you accept everything?
Well, I can't tell you because you can't tell me what it means to accept or reject an idea.

Do you accept or reject The Universe?
Lacewing wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:10 pm Or are you perpetually floating in some in-between state and spewing out your nonsense claims from pure mindlessness?
I am perpetually pointing out arguments that aren't even wrong.
uwot
Posts: 5028
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:53 pm... I would side with an agnostic theist before I side with a gnostic atheist, which is completely expected given my over-index on epistemology.
You and me both and, as I keep pointing out, the term agnosticism was created by Thomas Huxley, who would also agree with you:
"On the whole, the "bosh" of heterodoxy is more offensive to me than that of orthodoxy, because heterodoxy professes to be guided by reason and science, and orthodoxy does not."
— Thomas Henry Huxley (From the wikipedia page on agnosticism as it happens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism )
Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:53 pm...I don't know if I believe in God or not. How would I find out?

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for "belief" anyway?
I don't see the need for any conditions. If there is nothing to reject in flying elephants, as in
Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 6:31 pmFlying elephants? Cool! What is there to "reject"?
what is there to reject in theism?
Skepdick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:11 pm It's that epistemically, they shoot themselves in the face with a shotgun.
Because I violently assault your religion?

Yeah! Both theists and atheists hate that.
Skepdick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:16 pm I don't see the need for any conditions. If there is nothing to reject in flying elephants, as in
I wasn't asking about god-belief (in particular), I was asking about belief (in general).
uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:16 pm what is there to reject in theism?
Inversely, what is there to accept in atheism?

Heck, what is there to accept in elephants? Even if they weren't flying.

I don't know if I believe in God; or elephants. How do I find out if I believe in either?
uwot
Posts: 5028
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by uwot »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:39 pm... what is there to accept in atheism?
Nothing. My atheism is simply that I don't accept what theists say there is to accept about their theism.
Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 7:39 pmI don't know if I believe in God; or elephants. How do I find out if I believe in either?
Well, knowing whether you believe sounds like the gnostic position, theist or atheist, that you would rather not support. You could just do what most people do: believe p or not p and then get into interminable arguments with people who take the opposite view.
Skepdick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick »

uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:48 pm Nothing. My atheism is simply that I don't accept what theists say there is to accept about their theism.
And what empirical change might one observe if you were to accept the theistic narrative?
uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:48 pm Well, knowing whether you believe sounds like the gnostic position , theist or atheist, that you would rather not support.
The testable/falsifiable kind of knowledge is not the type that offends my sensibilities ,and I can sure test/falsify hypotheses about myself...
uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:48 pm You could just do what most people do: believe p or not p and then get into interminable arguments with people who take the opposite view.
Well, I more than believe that I like ice-cream. I know I like icecream. You would know I like icecream too if you saw how much of it I eat.

But I don't know whether I believe in God or not, and I have no idea how to test.
Gary Childress
Posts: 1985
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:54 pm
uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:48 pm Nothing. My atheism is simply that I don't accept what theists say there is to accept about their theism.
And what empirical change might one observe if you were to accept the theistic narrative?
uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:48 pm Well, knowing whether you believe sounds like the gnostic position , theist or atheist, that you would rather not support.
The testable/falsifiable kind of knowledge is not the type that offends my sensibilities ,and I can sure test/falsify hypotheses about myself...
uwot wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:48 pm You could just do what most people do: believe p or not p and then get into interminable arguments with people who take the opposite view.
Well, I more than believe that I like ice-cream. I know I like icecream. You would know I like icecream too if you saw how much of it I eat.

But I don't know whether I believe in God or not, and I have no idea how to test.
You have no idea how to test if you believe in God or not or do you mean you have no idea how to test if there is a God?
Skepdick
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:15 pm You have no idea how to test if you believe in God or not or do you mean you have no idea how to test if there is a God?
The former.

Abstract beliefs lead to concrete actions/behavior.

What sort of actions/behaviour would indicate that I do believe in God?
What sort of actions/behaviours would be absent if I didn't?
Gary Childress
Posts: 1985
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: The Domain of Confusion

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:38 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:15 pm You have no idea how to test if you believe in God or not or do you mean you have no idea how to test if there is a God?
The former.

Abstract beliefs lead to concrete actions.

What sort of behaviour would empirically indicate that I do believe in God?
What sort of behaviours would be absent if I didn't?
I suppose if you believe in God you might do things like pray, offer homage to or say things out loud when no one else was listening which you think God is listening to. Or you might abstain from certain behaviors due only to fear of divine retribution or something.
Post Reply