What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

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attofishpi
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by attofishpi » Sat May 23, 2020 2:59 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 2:41 pm
Skepdick to Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
You deserve some kind of award! :lol:
They both do - it's called the futility award.

surreptitious57
Posts: 4127
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat May 23, 2020 3:48 pm

Age wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Age wrote:
Your belief and / or your change in belief can be tested and verified and so is falsifiable by and through OPEN and Honest communication
But you have no way of knowing if he is being open and honest in communication - not unless you can read his mind
So what is his mind and how do you KNOW that I cannot read it ?

Is there any possibility at all that you could be partly or completely WRONG here ?

Oh and by the way when a person says something at first then there may be no way of knowing if that person is being open and honest in
their communication but with the right kind of series of clarifying questioning then what thee actual Truth IS can be exposed and / or revealed
Can you know his thoughts without him actually telling you what they are ?

Is there any possibility that I could be partly or completely wrong about you not knowing someones thoughts without them telling you ?

Can truth always be revealed from clarifying questions ? Can you think of any examples when this would not be possible ?
I can think of at least two examples when it would not be possible so are absolutely certain your view is the correct one ?

Age
Posts: 4702
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Sat May 23, 2020 3:58 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
If the accusations are not false, then why will you not provide the evidence?
I already told you why. This error is not worth correcting.
Your "this error is not worth correcting" was in relation to another error, which I had ALREADY corrected.

Also, seems rather very weak and extremely unreasonable of you to make a claim and accuse me of not speaking the Truth here, but when you are challenged to put forward some evidence or proof of this, you then say, "This error is not worth correcting".

Is it because the actual error made was on your part here?

If I have EVER not been speaking the Truth here, then I want to be SHOWN this. If I have not been speaking the Truth here, then I am NOT afraid of this. In fact I want it brought to light and revealed to EVERY one here.

So, if you want to continue with the accusations and claims, then reveal what thee actual Truth IS.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Considering that this is a philosophy forum, making claims, and then not substantiating those claims at all seems very unreasonable.
it's not as unreasonable as pedantry.
If you mean me highlighting and showing how you make claims and accusations of and about "others", but you will not back up and substantiate those accusations and claims is just excessive concern with minor details, then that would explain about the way you expose yourself here.

A philosophy forum is, to me anyway, the actual place where it would be best one is able to back up and support their views and actually does this. Otherwise people like yourself could just make absolutely any accusation and/or claim at all about absolutely anything, and never have to support them at all. Obviously this is NOT a minor detail in a philosophy forum.

You suggesting that not substantiating your claims is not as unreasonable as pedantry, especially in a philosophy forum, is absurdity in the highest degree.

To object to you refusing to substantiate your claims is not mere pedantry.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Really, what have you to lose?
Time and energy.
Just look at how much time, energy, and effort you have and you still are putting into 'trying' not to reveal that you actually have absolutely nothing at all to back up, support, and substantiate your claims and accusations here.

Obviously, if you did have any thing you would have put them forward, and just as obvious is that by doing that you would have spent far less time and energy than you still are now.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
I suggest if you want to make a claim, then you have at least some thing to back up and support this claim. Otherwise you will look very foolish.
I have already made the claim. The price of foolishness is paid.
Any one can claim any thing. But, if they have absolutely nothing to prove their claim, then obviously they are the ones who look the fool.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Now, you want to accuse me of not speaking the Truth here. So, either you have some evidence of this, which if you did, then you would put forward very quickly. Or, you have no evidence at all. And, considering you do not consider providing any thing at all, then most people will decide what your accusation really IS.
Or...the evidence is recorded in this very thread and in this very forum for everybody else to see, so I don't have to collate it.
LOL The amount of time and energy you are unnecessarily using to 'try' and deflect away from the actual Truth, which is; You have absolutely NOTHING to show, completely outweighs and outstrips the time and energy you could have used by just writing where I have supposedly not been speaking the Truth.

I have no intention to produce any evidence. But you are welcome to go looking for it - it's there.[/quote]

LOL You have no intention to produce any evidence BECAUSE you have NONE.

And, suggesting I go looking for YOUR evidence, of some imagined thing existing, is about one of the most absurd and STUPID things I have heard in this forum.

I am OPEN to any one to go looking for where I have, allegedly to "skepdick", 'not been speaking the Truth', and if they find any to bring it forward. Obviously, "skepdick" is completely and utterly incapable of doing this. Either this is because "skepdick" is lazy, there is no evidence of this at all and therefore "skepdick's" accusations and claims are just false and lies, or for some other reason.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
And how nonsensical it is to ask such a thing speaks for itself.
If the question was nonsensical, then how did you answer it?
I did not answer it. I informed that to me it was nonsensical.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
It's nonsensical to think that asking nonsensical questions is nonsensical.
In doing so I learned that the question is not nonsensical to you!
If that is what you learned and took from this encounter, then this is perfectly fine with me.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
So, why is it you who brings up these nonsensical concepts?
I told you why.
WHEN did you supposedly tell me this?

You have a tendency to say this sort of thing, but when reading back there is no actual evidence of you "telling me why".
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
So that I can verify whether they are nonsensical to you.
So, why do you purposely say and ask nonsensical things to me just to find out whether they are nonsensical to me?

Do you have a habit of saying and asking nonsensical things?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
And what is that "common root" that the word 'to' and the word 'in' share?
Belief?
So, to you the so called "great overlap" between what could after all be two extremely different concepts is just the one word that two completely extremely different words are next to.

I think you are missing the point of what the two words actually mean is what affects the actual concepts of the terms being used.
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
'To swim' and 'swim in' both share a common word, that word being 'swim'. But, 'to swim' and 'swim in' mean two different things. This is because they are two different concepts.
The two different concepts both exemplify the general notion of swimming, so your distinction is only between the general and the particular - it's not even relevant.[/quote]

Did you forget that it was supposedly you previously who did not know what things mean, but here you are all of sudden 'trying' to tell me what things mean.

'To swim' is in relation to the action of swimming. 'Swim in' is in relation to where this swimming takes place. These are obvious two extremely very different concepts.

'To believe' and 'believe in' can also be two extremely very different concepts. But, on your own admission, you have absolutely NO idea at all about this fact.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
I have neither a general nor particular conception of "beliefs", "believing", "to believe" or "believing in".
This allegation is OBVIOUS.

You allege or portray you are not capable of forming concepts in relation to these words and phrases by yourself.

You actually acknowledge you need "others" to teach, lead and/or show you the way of how to conceptualize things here.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
A so called "tactic" for what?
I said what for. I am trying to understand what the concept of "belief" means to you.
And I have told you numerous times how to find that out.

But because you are blinded by your own beliefs and assumptions here you are not able to see nor understand this.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Also, if you just want to know what 'believing' and 'not believing' means to me, just ask me. Asking me whether I believe in elephants, will NEVER provide you with the answer to what 'believing' and 'not believing' means to me. So, that so called "tactic" will not work.
I don't know if it will work or it won't work. But it probably will work.
You still did not see, and so will still not understand this.

I even capitalize and you still can not SEE.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
And, as I said earlier, most people know if they believe in some thing or not. But you have informed us here that you are incapable of doing this. In fact you are the only human being that I know of that does not know whether they believe in some thing or not.
Sure. And as soon as you tell me what it means to believe in something, I'll let you know if I do.
And, as I have said and pointed out to you, I will let you know when you tell me what the word 'believe' means to you.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
To be honest, you are also the only human being I know of who doesn't believe in elephants.
I asked all my other friends - they said they believe in elephants.
Well then I suggest that they would be the best people to inform you of what 'to believe in something' means.

Obviously if I do not believe in any thing, then I would not be the best one to ask what does it mean to believe in some thing.

Did you ask your "other friends" what does it mean to believe in something?

If no, then why not?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
You can want me to do things for as long as you like. I have already told you that believing in, or not believing in, elephants is a nonsensical concept to me.
Yeah, but you also told me that you don't believe in elephants. So I am wondering how you know that.
Because I look at and listen to the actual facts and actual Truth of things. Thee actual Truth and the fact is that I do not believe any thing at all. Therefore, that is how I KNOW I do not believe in elephants.

Are you at all aware that what you are 'trying' to achieve here in regards to your beliefs about 'logic' are not going to work?

Your confirmation biases will not let you SEE and UNDERSTAND the plain CLEAR Truth and FACT here. That is; you are just fooling and deceiving your own self by saying that you do not know if you believe in things or not. You CAN easily KNOW this. But you can NOT admit to this FACT because that would then dismantle and rip to shreds all of your beliefs in regards to 'logic'.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
You cannot make the question/statement sensible, thus meaningful. Therefore, it does not necessarily mean any thing at all.
Well, you answered the question, so it must have meant something to you.
And what was the supposed "answer", which you are now claiming I made?

Or, is this going to be one of these "I do not want to spend time and energy on" excuses for not bringing anything forward?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But that was not the purpose of ALL of this at all, to me.
So what?
You just made the unsubstantiated claim that, "The purpose of ALL of this was for you to figure out what "believing" and "belief" means to me".

I was just correcting what you wrote. That is 'so what'. Because I like to speak the Truth, I also like to correct when the Truth is not being spoken by "others".
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Why gave you the idea that the purpose of ALL of this is what you said here?
Because that's the purpose of ALL that I am saying here?
Well the purpose of ALL that you are saying here is OBVIOUSLY NOT the same as the purpose of ALL "of this".

If you want your words accepted for being the Truth, then you really do need to speak the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but thee Truth.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
I KNOW you do not know what it means. That is WHY I told you to look in a dictionary. You say they are not useful at all.
Indeed. A dictionary can never tell me what the word "belief" means to you!
LOL Nice 'try'. You once again twisted things around, as though that was what we were talking about. Obviously it was NOT. So, there is nothing more that needs to be said here.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But some of your questions are completely nonsensical questions.
Then how are you determining the answers to non-sensical questions?
Provide evidence and examples that I have actually determined an answer to your nonsensical questions.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Also, what a word means to me has no actual bearing on whether you believe in some thing or not.
Of course it does! Until I know what it means "to believe" I can't possibly determine whether I do or don't believe in a thing.
You misunderstood what I said, and meant, once again.

You are also only fooling yourself here. I KNOW how to determine whether I do or do not believe in a thing. This can be determined very easily and very simply, to and by me.

But if you want to insist with your belief that you "can not possibly determine whether you do or do not believe in a thing", then go right ahead and keep believing that. I really do not care, now.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Do you know if you woogyboogy in wafflespocks?
Once again, nonsensical, to me.

How are you defining 'woggyboogy in wafflespocks' here?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
There is also the fact that what a word means in one context does not mean the same thing in or from another context.
Lets not worry about the different contexts, when you can't even tell me what the word means in the context of elephants.
But depending on what actual word you are referring to here now, there may be no different contexts at all. So, once again, you will have to explain yourself much better.

Also, I was not worrying about any different contexts?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Why are you focusing on elephants now? This discussion started off in relation to some thing else before.
Pay attention!

I am not focusing on the elephants. I am focusing on your belief (or lack thereof) in elephants.
But you keep referring to elephants now, when obviously this started out not about elephants at all. And, you changing from what this started out to be about to now being about elephants has completely changed the context of what the words meant before.

Also, why would you even say that you are focusing on my belief (or lack thereof), especially considering what I have continually stated in relation to beliefs, from my perspective?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But if you do not know what the word 'believe' means, nor what 'believe in' means, then I can not even begin to teach you what it means 'to believe'.
That's not true. You have knowledge. I don't.

Communicate it to me. Teach me - I am willing to learn.
You have seriously NOT learned nothing from me about what I have actually been pointing out. One of those things that I have been pointing out is if you really want to know some specific thing, from me, then just ask a specific clarifying question, to me.

This is NOT, and I will repeat NOT a specific clarifying question; "Communicate 'it' to me". I have absolutely NO idea at all what 'it' is here.
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But what a word means to me, does not necessarily mean the same to "another".
Look! I don't even have a meaning for this word - so as far as I am concerned, something is better than nothing.

I'll gladly learn our meaning if you will teach it. [/quote]

But you have NOT gladly learned what I have "taught" so far.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
In what context are you using the word 'believe' here?
In whatever context you determined that you don't believe in elephants.
But this is another of your nonsensical statements. Did you not understand what my question to you was asking, and meaning?

How could you possibly know whatever context I determined that I do not believe in elephants?

Do you know what context I determined that I do not believe in elephants?

If no, then your answer is completely and utterly nonsensical.

But if yes, then you now know how to determine if you believe in elephants or not.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
See, I have to understand and know exactly what you are referring to for me to explain to you accurately what it means.
I am referring to whatever made you say that you don't believe in elephants when I asked you the question.
Ah okay. And do you know what that is?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Okay. So, what is it exactly that you are having issues with here now?
The same thing I keep telling you. Your meaning of "belief".
How could 'YOU' possibly be having any issue at all with my meaning of 'belief'?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Would it?

How do you differentiate between the definition of a word and the meaning of a word?
Trivially.

One word can have more meanings than definitions.
Where do you get those meanings from exactly?

And, why can you not get the meaning of 'believe in', 'to believe', and/or 'believe' from that same source?

If you just did that, then, according to your so called "logic", you would then be able to determine and thus know if you believe in things or not.

Then all of this would be settled, to me.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Once again, you are 'trying' so hard to twist and distort what I say, and mean, around to some convoluted and distorted view that you have here.
I am not doing that. You must be paranoid.
Okay, to you, I must be paranoid then.

Is it not at all possible that you are not even consciously aware that you are doing this?

Could you be doing this completely unintentionally and have not even noticed or recognized that you are doing it?

Or, could it be the case that your confirmation biases are so strong that you are not even aware that you are 'trying' so hard to twist and distort what I say, and mean, around?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Where and when have I ever said absolutely any thing, which even remotely suggests that the definitions/meanings given in a dictionary have absolutely any thing at all to what words means to me?
I asked you what the word "belief" mean (who else would I be asking when I am talking to you?). You told me to look it up in a dictionary.
Seriously, are you still not yet AWARE that if you want to know some specific thing, then you have to ask a specific clarifying question?

You can ask me a trillion times what the word 'belief' means, but I could NEVER give you the correct and accurate answer until I find out what it is myself.

Why would you defer the answer to the question to a dictionary?[/quote]

You STILL have not yet worked out what is going on here.

Let me help you out, AGAIN. If you want to know what a word means to me, then you will have to ask me what does a word mean, to you.

Let me see if I can explain it to even more thoroughly. If you want to know what a word means, then I can not give it to you. But, if you want to know what a word means, to me, then you have to just ask for that.

Do you yet see and understand the difference?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Why would you even 'try' to go down some absurd path as you are here now?
What seems absurd to me is the idea that you can't tell me what your words mean, but a dictionary can.
You are continually twisting and distorting my words around.

The reason this happens is completely understandable. So, WHY you continually do this makes perfect sense.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But you said you do not know what 'meaning' means. So, how could you even mean any thing when you use the word 'meaning'?
I don't know what it means. I just know how to use it.
I suggest if you do not yet know what a word means, then you stop using that word until you do.

Also, how one uses words is just by putting one after the other. But if you did not know what words mean, as you allege you do, then you would not be able to put words one after the other in an order that would make sense to "others".
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Because if I do not believe in any thing, then I OBVIOUSLY do not believe in elephants, ALSO.
Age, focus! You have wasted so many words misunderstanding.
But how do you expect me to understand the words you use when you yourself admit that you do not even know what some of them mean. If you do not know what the words mean that you use, then why would I?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
All this time I have been talking about the knowledge of belief, and I told you that I don't know whether I believe or not because I don't know what belief is.
I understood this from about the second or third post.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
How do you know that you don't believe in anything if you don't know what "belief" is ?
But I do know what the word 'belief' means, to me.

Why would you assume that I would not?

Why do you assume that I do not know what 'belief' is?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
OBVIOUSLY the one that states I do not believe in any thing.
Obviously. I am asking you how you know that!
If that is "obvious", as you allege it is, then where and when were you asking me how I know 'that'?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
There are obviously two options; believing some thing or disbelieving some thing.
How could you possibly determine the true option if you the notion of "belief" is nonsensical to you?
But the notion of 'belief' has never been nonsensical to me?

Why would you assume such a thing?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
The notion of "belief" is nonsensical to me, therefore I don't know if I do or don't believe in elephants.
Okay.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
The notion of "belief" is (apparently) nonsensical to you also, BUT you somehow know that you don't believe in elephants.
But the notion of 'belief is NOT nonsensical to me.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
What?!??
What is this is relation to exactly?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
This is made absolutely obviously clear by my statement; I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing. Obviously if I do not believe any thing, then I can NOT believe in elephants.
You can't possibly determine that without knowing what "belief" means!
But I already know what 'belief' means, to me.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But there was NOTHING to "figure" out.
I am literally trying to figure out how you determined that you don't believe in elephants if the notion of "belief" is nonsensical to you!
First you will have to rid yourself of the WRONG assumption that the notion of 'belief' is nonsensical to me.

Let me know when you have rid yourself of this completely and utterly WRONG assumption of yours, then we can proceed.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
If you have not figured 'it' out by now, then you are on your own here.
It turns out that way. I thought you had an answer for me, turns out you are even more confused than me.
What is it exactly that you allege that I am more confused about than you.

Also, before you said you were not confused, so how could I be more confused than you now?

Are you now admitting that you are somewhat confused? Obviously for me to be more confused than you are, then that means you are somewhat confused.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
If I do not believe any thing, then obviously I would not believe in elephants. I do not believe any thing. Therefore, this was and is extremely simple and easy to understand, and there is and was absolutely nothing to "figure out".
Stop lying. How did you determine that you don't believe in anything if the notion of "belief" is nonsensical to you?
Where is this 'assumption' coming from exactly that the notion of 'belief' is nonsensical to me?

Have you completely forgotten that it is you that the notion of 'belief' is nonsensical to?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
So what is 'it' that you are not understanding and/or have not yet figured out?
How did you determine that you don't believe in anything if the notion of "belief" is nonsensical to you?
You really do need to get rid of this assumption about the notion of 'belief' being nonsensical to me.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
How did you arrive at the knowledge about your lack of belief in anything?
When I chose to stop believing any thing. From then on I KNEW I did not believe any thing.

How did you arrive at the knowledge that you supposedly could not determine whether you believed in some thing or not?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
The second point about you not knowing whether you believe in some thing or not was known by the second or third reply in our discussion. There is nothing else to really talk about is there?
There is something to talk about: How do you know that you don't believe in anything if the notion of "belief" is nonsensical to you?
How I know that I do not believe in any thing is by the choice I made to not believe in any thing. Oh, and by the way, the notion of 'belief' is not nonsensical to me. In case you have not yet worked that out by now.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Also, and by the way, if you just want to KNOW what the word 'believing' means to me, then just me ask a clarifying question, from a Truly OPEN perspective. In fact if you just want to KNOW what any thing means to me, then just ask me a clarifying question, from a Truly OPEN perspective.
My perspective is "Truly OPEN", Age! I have told you now, many times, over and over, and in different words, but you are failing to hear me.
Is it possible you are failing to hear me? Or, is this failing on my part alone?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
You have knowledge.
I don't.
Is this thee actual Truth?

Or, is the actual Truth I have knowledge of some things, and, you do not have knowledge of some things? Or, are you actually saying you do not have knowledge of any and all things?

Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Teach me what you know.
In regards to what exactly?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But just be forewarned that I might have to ask you some clarifying question first, before I answer, just to gain a perspective of what it is that you are actually really asking me for. Does this seem at all unreasonable, to you?
It's not at all unreasonable.
Okay, so when, and if, you start to ask me some specific clarifying questions, then we can and will begin.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
What paranoia are you talking about and referring to here?
The paranoia which causes you to accuse me of not having an OPEN perspective.
Are you seriously suggesting and/or saying that you have a Truly OPEN perspective ALWAYS?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
If you are misunderstanding me and consequently twisting and/or distorting what I am actually saying, and meaning, then that is what is happening, and so not necessarily paranoia at all.
But if I am not misunderstanding you, and I am not twisting or distorting what you are saying, then you may be paranoid.
Yes agreed.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Remember if you want to claim some thing, then it is best to have at least some thing to substantiate and support your claim. Do you have any thing in regards to your claim; More of your paranoia?
Yes. You are obsessing over it.
But that does not back up nor support your previous claims.

Also, do you seriously consider me just asking you, politely, to back up and support your claims, "obsessing over", what I consider to be false and wrong claims and accusations?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Because you believe that it is not possible to learn the meaning of words, correct?
I don't know if I believe that. I don't know what it means "to believe".
Okay.

Why do you think you do not know what it means 'to believe'?

Also, what do you consider is preventing and/or stopping you from knowing what it means 'to believe'?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
And, you would not believe some thing if it was not true nor correct, right?
I don't know that either. Because you still haven't told me how to determine whether I do or don't believe in anything.
But I have told you already. You just could not grasp onto it and understand it.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
If you are not using a word, then I would not know what you are talking about and what you appear so desperate to learn about.
I am mentioning the word "belief", I am not using it. I don't know how to use it - that's what you are trying to teach me.
But I am NOT trying to teach you any thing here now. Where did you get this ludicrous assumption from?

I may have tried to teach you some thing before. But I gave up, a while ago now in fact.

Also, why do you not know how to use the word "belief" but you know how to use the word "meaning", but yet you do not know what both of these words mean?

If, as you say, you do not know what 'meaning' means, you just know how to use it, then why do you not know how to use the word 'belief'? Why the discrepancy here?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Nothing I said in that quote of mine was in relation to any one word. I just said; If you do not know what a word means, then I suggest it best to not use that word, until you do discover and/or learn what it means. This is in relation to absolutely ANY word, as is clearly evidenced in the words I used.
I know that. Which is why I am not using the word. I am only mentioning it.
But you have also alluded to the fact that you do not know the meaning of any word.

Do you know what other words mean?

If yes, then why can you not learn what the word 'believe' means?

But if no, then why do you use those words but only mention the 'believe' word?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
I have absolutely NO idea what word you are referring to here, and because I do NOT like to assume absolutely any thing at all, I will NOT.
The word "belief".
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
One way is if I wrote that dictionary.
Did you?
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Also, if you want to KNOW what a word means, TO ME, then you will have to add that to the clarifying question, posed TO ME.
I don't know how to clarify any further. You are using a word I don't understand. Explain its meaning.
You are doing the EXACT opposite of what I said to do.

It appears you have, once again, completely and utterly misunderstood me.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But I ALREADY DID IT.
Without me knowing? Doubtful.
Why doubtful? Are you now proposing you know a lot of things?

You just got through explaining to us that you do not even know if you yourself believe in some thing or not. So, if you do not even know that, then it appears that a lot of things could get passed you without you knowing.

If the actual thoughts/thinking within that actual head gets passed you, without you knowing, then what thoughts/thinking happens outside of you and that head could much more easily get passed you, without you ever knowing.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Okay. I find ALL errors, especially in a philosophy forum, need to be corrected.
I find that way of thinking erroneous. You should probably correct it.
If you find errors, especially in a philosophy forum, need not be corrected, then this explains a lot about the way you speak and the way you write things here, in this philosophy forum.

Also, to what exact way of thinking do you say I should probably correct that thinking.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
I have noticed this. From my perspective, you prefer to spend far more time and effort detracting away from your errors. But then again so do most people do this same thing.
That's not true at all. Most people don't have enough time to correct all errors, so they choose which errors are important and which errors aren't.
Ah okay, that is one way to 'try to' "justify" all of the errors one keeps making.

I prefer to just not make any errors at all from the very start, that way I then do not have to spend much time at all to correct all of the errors that I do actually make.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Okay, if you say so. So, are you now saying that you can fathom that you can know whether you believe in things like God and/or elephants?
I don't know if I can. When you teach me what it means "to believe in things" then I will tell you.
When you say, "When you teach me what it 'means' ...", what do you actually mean?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
I suggested earlier if you want to find the definition or meaning of a word, then look it up in a dictionary. You did not like this suggestion. So, what is it exactly you want me to teach you?
The dictionary says that the the transitive verb "believing" means accepting something as true or real.

You don't believe in elephants, therefore you don't think elephants are real.
Well you certainly twisted this around in a very distorted way, from my perspective.

Okay, so do you accept and agree that what the word 'believing' means is; accepting something as true or real?

If you do, then we can proceed from here. So, just let us know if you do.

Also, remember if you want to find and see thee actual Truth of things, then you have to speak the actual Truth also, okay?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Is that what you really mean, Age? Is that what you are trying to say to me?
No, this is because you have twisted and distorted things around here a bit.

What I really am saying and meaning is somewhat different. I will, however, just wait to find out if you do Truly accept and agree with what that dictionary says in relation to the word 'believing' first, before I proceed.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
The way of knowing if you believe in some thing or not does not necessarily have absolutely any thing at all to do with discovering and/or learning any meaning of any word here. That just involves listening to your answer when you ask yourself the clarifying question.
OK, why do you think that elephants aren't real, Age?
I have NEVER even thought this, let alone even suggesting this, let alone ever mentioning nor saying any thing like this.

Where and why would you assume such a thing as this?

Your assumptions do tend to lead you astray quite a lot. But this is what happens with WRONG assumptions.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But you just got through explaining to us that you do not yet know what the word 'meaning' means.
Sure, but I don't know what any word means. I just know how to use them.
So, you do not know how to use the 'belief' word, but you know how to use other words although you supposedly do not know what any word means.

Can you spot and notice contradictions in what you are now saying from what you have said previously?

Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
If you do not yet know what the meaning of 'meaning' is, then how would you know if the meaning was EXACTLY the same or not?
Because I intend them to mean different things?
Okay, how do you intend them to mean exactly?

Also, if you can give meaning to these words, then why do you say you can not give meaning to other words?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Are you absolutely SURE of this?
Obviously! I am asking the one phrasing the questions.
Ah okay, so it is you who is providing the meaning for the words you are using.

Sounds like you do actually know how to find and give meaning to words after all, correct?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
If yes, then will you provide some examples of asking the same question using different words?
When, and if, you do this, then we will see if the EXACT same question is being asked or if there is actually any difference in the question being asked.
All of my questions in this interaction are in servitude of my single purpose: What does it mean "to believe" in things?

It has been my (repeatedly) stated intention. I am Open and Honest about it.
But ALL of your questions posed in this interaction are not the exact same thing to me. For example some are sensible while some are not. Some are nonsensical, while some are clearer and more specific than others are.

If you really believe that ALL of your questions are asking more or less the exact same thing, then I am certainly missing the 'meaning' you are putting behind the words you use.

What do you propose it means 'to believe' in things?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
From who's perspective?
Yours.
Yes.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
If I go to a dictionary and look up the word 'paraphrasing', then I will obtain a definition of that word, and thus also gain a concept of what that word could mean.
If you are looking in the dictionary, then you don't know what it means?
Not necessarily so, but usually so.

But then again are you telling me what I do or what you do?

Obviously you do not have the knowledge to tell me what I do.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
But I can not teach you what the meaning of a word.
Why not?
Because there is no one meaning to a word.

People give and put their own meaning to a word, and this can change more frequently than people even yet fully realize and understand.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
You would have to understand what the definition of the word 'the' means first, before you could fully comprehend and understand that I can not teach you 'the' meaning of a word.
But you aren't using the word "believe" in the way the dictionary defines it.
And this has absolutely NOTHING at all to do with what I was just quoted as saying, which you just responded to.

Also, because you did not understand what I said at all, you actually just used the word 'the' in a way that I was just actually pointing out.

You would have to understand what a definition of the word 'the' means first now, before what I said and am saying will be understood.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
If that were true, then it's also true that you think elephants aren't real. Do you really think that, Age?
Besides the fact that you have completely and utterly misunderstood me here, what you have just said here now does not logically and reasonably follow also, anyway.

What you said and asked here is nonsensical. But you did say that you do do this, and so I will not answer your question here.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Okay. You have re-repeated this enough times now already.
I have, and you keep forgetting - you keep asking me if I believe in things...
Do I?

When was the last time I asked you if you believe in things?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Okay, when did this change happen?
About 10 years ago.
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
How did this change happen?

And, why did this change happen?
I understood how language/communication/thinking works.
How well do you actually understand how language/communication/thinking works?
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
By the way, who and/or what is that 'I' that has power over words now, and not the other way any longer?
Whatever "I" am - I don't know. I have many labels.
So, you do not even know if you believe in something or not, and you say you do not even know thy 'self', yet you say you understand how language/communication/thinking works. Okay.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
I would not be so absolutely sure of yourself here.
Well, rather than explaining how you use the word "belief" - you have spent many keyboard strokes diverting us from the point.
But you just made the claim that I have not even attempted to pass my knowledge to you. I just informed you that I would not be so absolutely sure of yourself here.

Also, no one has specifically asked me to clarify how I use the word 'belief'. Unless of course some evidence and proof is shown otherwise.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Good thing I don't lose track of my objectives.
If you say so.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Because of all of the differing factors involved.

Are you under some sort of illusion here that there is ONLY One factor involved?
I have no such illusion, Age. You are the one who insists it's "trivial and simple".
But I have NEVER insisted any thing is "trivial".
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
"All the factors involved" is what I call complexity.
But once you gain understanding itself, then how ALL of the factors actually come into play together become obvious, and this is what helps in knowing and understanding the simplicity of ALL-OF-THIS.
Skepdick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am
Also, some people are just not ready and thus not yet able to learn some things.
I am not one of those people.
If you say so, but considering what is actually happening and occurring here some would say the exact opposite is True.

Age
Posts: 4702
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Sat May 23, 2020 4:16 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:48 pm
Age wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:

But you have no way of knowing if he is being open and honest in communication - not unless you can read his mind
So what is his mind and how do you KNOW that I cannot read it ?

Is there any possibility at all that you could be partly or completely WRONG here ?

Oh and by the way when a person says something at first then there may be no way of knowing if that person is being open and honest in
their communication but with the right kind of series of clarifying questioning then what thee actual Truth IS can be exposed and / or revealed
Can you know his thoughts without him actually telling you what they are ?
Yes.

Can I be absolutely sure I am right? No.

Would I be right most of the time? Absolutely not.

But is it possible to know another's thoughts without them actually telling me what they are? Yes.

Surely, you would have had first hand experience yourself of this ability before, correct? Have you ever lived or worked with people and just knew, or more correctly just guessed correctly, what they were thinking, some times?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:48 pm
Is there any possibility that I could be partly or completely wrong about you not knowing someones thoughts without them telling you ?
You did not answer my clarifying question but you would like me to answer your clarifying question here correct?

For me to answer your question here correctly and properly, then I would need to know what you actually mean by "not knowing someone's thoughts without them telling me"? Do you mean under absolutely EVERY situation and circumstance, or just some? Did you mean some thing else?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:48 pm
Can truth always be revealed from clarifying questions ?
That would all depend on the clarifying questions asked, and the person providing the answers.

Some people do not even know when they are lying, so No truth can not ALWAYS be revealed from clarifying questions. But with enough time, enough right people, and with enough of the right clarifying questions, then thee Truth might always be revealed. Only the future can, and will, answer this correctly.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:48 pm
Can you think of any examples when this would not be possible ?
When people want to remain dishonest.

When the right clarifying questions are not being asked.

When people are not that interested in gaining truth.

When people do not want to spend enough time.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:48 pm
I can think of at least two examples when it would not be possible so are absolutely certain your view is the correct one ?
What are those two examples?

And did you mean "not the correct one"?

Skepdick
Posts: 4371
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick » Sat May 23, 2020 4:30 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 2:59 pm
They both do - it's called the futility award.
To the uninitiated, it's not at all clear that communication is actually taking place ;)

Much of the back-and-forth reminds me of a typical design session. "My mind is your mind" kind of thinking, but in real time this hour-long interaction would take no more than 30 seconds.

surreptitious57
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm

Age wrote:
Have you ever lived or worked with people and just knew or more correctly just guessed correctly what they were thinking some times ?
Knowing and guessing are not the same thing and my original question only referenced knowing what some ones thoughts were
I meant it in an objective sense where you would automatically know what someone was thinking every single time without fail
And since you have now stated that you do not actually have this ability then the question has been answered to my satisfaction

surreptitious57
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:08 pm

Age wrote:
No truth can not ALWAYS be revealed from clarifying questions
I agree but I had to ask the question as I wanted to see what your answer would be
Because I genuinely did not know if you meant it in a general or an absolute sense

surreptitious57
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:08 pm

Age wrote:
What are those two examples ?
I have another two and so four in all
When wrong / false answers are given / when no answers at all are given
When the question is too ambiguous / when the answer is too ambiguous

Atla
Posts: 2813
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Atla » Sat May 23, 2020 6:24 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 2:41 pm
Skepdick to Age wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am
You deserve some kind of award! :lol:
What if they are chatbots, or people using chatbots, so they can generate walls of text in mere seconds? :)

Age
Posts: 4702
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Sat May 23, 2020 11:55 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm
Age wrote:
Have you ever lived or worked with people and just knew or more correctly just guessed correctly what they were thinking some times ?
Knowing and guessing are not the same thing and my original question only referenced knowing what some ones thoughts were
And, as I pointed out it is possible to know what some ones thoughts are.

The very reason I used the 'guessed' word is to highlight what thee actual Truth IS.

So, although a person can 'know' what another's thoughts are, the Truth IS that person never really 'knows', for sure, until clarification is made.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm
I meant it in an objective sense where you would automatically know what someone was thinking every single time without fail
If what you actually meant was somewhat different from what you actually said and wrote, then I suggest you make this more clear. Because if what you really were referring to and wanted answered was; Can a person know what someone was thinking EVERY SINGLE TIME WITHOUT FAIL, then I would have OBVIOUSLY provided you with ANOTHER COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANSWER.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm
And since you have now stated that you do not actually have this ability then the question has been answered to my satisfaction
Great, then that is all settled now.

But just to remind you, if you want a specific question answered, properly and correctly, then you first need to ask that very specific clarifying question first.

Age
Posts: 4702
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:08 pm
Age wrote:
No truth can not ALWAYS be revealed from clarifying questions
I agree but I had to ask the question as I wanted to see what your answer would be
Because I genuinely did not know if you meant it in a general or an absolute sense
Fair enough, and thank you for the clarifying questions.

Age
Posts: 4702
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Sun May 24, 2020 12:03 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:08 pm
Age wrote:
What are those two examples ?
I have another two and so four in all
When wrong / false answers are given / when no answers at all are given
When the question is too ambiguous / when the answer is too ambiguous
So, we now know more clearly what prevents and stops the Truth from being revealed with and through clarifying questions. Therefore, we now better know what to do, which will actually allow thee actual Truth of things to become revealed.

And, thus thee actual Truth of things is becoming more and more revealed through our Truly OPEN and Honest discussions with and from the help of Truly OPEN and specific clarifying questions.

Dubious
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Dubious » Sun May 24, 2020 12:36 am

Not being fooled by illusions in thinking some divine power gives a crap about humans...for one thing.

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attofishpi
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by attofishpi » Sun May 24, 2020 6:00 am

Dubious wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:36 am
Not being fooled by illusions in thinking some divine power gives a crap about humans...for one thing.
Clearly you are fooled by the illusion of REAL_IT_Y.

Dubious
Posts: 2461
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Dubious » Sun May 24, 2020 11:21 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:00 am
Dubious wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:36 am
Not being fooled by illusions in thinking some divine power gives a crap about humans...for one thing.
Clearly you are fooled by the illusion of REAL_IT_Y.
...the most obvious illusion to be fooled by! All the other ones aren't even 3rd rate. In short, I'm still trying to figure out the one I'm supposedly living in. Other illusions need not apply!

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