What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

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Age
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Thu May 21, 2020 6:39 am

Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:01 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:58 pm
I suppose if I saw you praying or something and it looked sincere and genuine, then it would lead me to suspect that you believe in a God.
OK, but I've told you that I pray AND i've told you that I don't believe in God. Now what?
Gary Childress wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:58 pm
I was simply answering your question on how you would know that you believe or not believe in a God.
It doesn't pass scientific muster. Neither my belief nor my change in belief is testable, let alone falsifiable.
But your belief and your change of belief is very testable.
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:01 pm
Even I can't test it and I am in my frikking head! How the hell would anybody else test it if I can't?
Just because 'you' can not do some thing, that in no way infers another can not do it.

Your belief and/or your change in belief can be tested and verified, and so is falsifiable by and through OPEN and Honest communication.

But while you remain somewhat closed and/or dishonest then your belief or your change in belief remains unverifiable, and thus contestable.

Skepdick
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick » Thu May 21, 2020 10:15 am

Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:39 am
Just because 'you' can not do some thing, that in no way infers another can not do it.
I know that. Which is why I am asking others to tell me HOW to test whether I believe in God or not.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:39 am
Your belief and/or your change in belief can be tested and verified, and so is falsifiable by and through OPEN and Honest communication.
Communication is for communication. It's not for testing beliefs.

Experiments are for testing beliefs. If you know of an experiment which would allow me to determine whether I believe in God or not - tell me what it is and I'll perform it all by myself.

Age
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am

Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 10:15 am
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:39 am
Just because 'you' can not do some thing, that in no way infers another can not do it.
I know that. Which is why I am asking others to tell me HOW to test whether I believe in God or not.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:39 am
Your belief and/or your change in belief can be tested and verified, and so is falsifiable by and through OPEN and Honest communication.
Communication is for communication. It's not for testing beliefs.

Experiments are for testing beliefs. If you know of an experiment which would allow me to determine whether I believe in God or not - tell me what it is and I'll perform it all by myself.
Okay. This is extremely simple. Ask yourself, Do I believe in God? Then just be OPEN and Honest with your answer. Asking and answering is the only experimented needed to determine whether you believe in God or not.

If you are OPEN and Honest, then your answer will be the findings. But, if you are somewhat closed and/or dishonest at all, then you will still be as confused and bewildered as you are now.

Asking OPENLY and answering Honestly is all that is needed here. Try it, and let us know your results.

Skepdick
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick » Thu May 21, 2020 12:00 pm

Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
Okay. This is extremely simple. Ask yourself, Do I believe in God? Then just be OPEN and Honest with your answer. Asking and answering is the only experimented needed to determine whether you believe in God or not.
I've done that. Nothing happened.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
If you are OPEN and Honest, then your answer will be the findings.
My open and honest answer is: I don't know if I believe in God or not.

That's why I am asking you to tell me how to find out.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
But, if you are somewhat closed and/or dishonest at all, then you will still be as confused and bewildered as you are now.
Are you open and honest to the possibility that you are not as open and honest as I am?

Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
Asking OPENLY and answering Honestly is all that is needed here. Try it, and let us know your results.
I've told you the results. Are you not hearing me?

I asked myself the question "Do I believe in God?" - the answer is not forthcoming! All I got was silence.

Maybe you are hearing voices and I am not?

Age
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:00 pm
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
Okay. This is extremely simple. Ask yourself, Do I believe in God? Then just be OPEN and Honest with your answer. Asking and answering is the only experimented needed to determine whether you believe in God or not.
I've done that. Nothing happened.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
If you are OPEN and Honest, then your answer will be the findings.
My open and honest answer is: I don't know if I believe in God or not.

That's why I am asking you to tell me how to find out.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
But, if you are somewhat closed and/or dishonest at all, then you will still be as confused and bewildered as you are now.
Are you open and honest to the possibility that you are not as open and honest as I am?
Yes I am, but in relation to what exactly are you referring to here?

Remember that I am not the one who is confused and bewildered here. It is you who remains confused and bewildered here.

Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:00 pm
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:52 am
Asking OPENLY and answering Honestly is all that is needed here. Try it, and let us know your results.
I've told you the results. Are you not hearing me?
That is a funny question to ask me now, considering you have only just informed us of your results of the experiment I just gave you.

But to answer your question anyway, yes I am hearing you. Now that you have told me your results, I have heard you.

You do not know if you, yourself, believe some thing or not, which is a considerably unusual thing to not yet know and understand.
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:00 pm
I asked myself the question "Do I believe in God?" - the answer is not forthcoming! All I got was silence.
Well if all you can give is literally a dumb response, then that is all you are consequently going to get.

And, if you are not yet capable of asking further clarifying questions, and answering them, then you will remain, literally, dumbfounded.
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:00 pm
Maybe you are hearing voices and I am not?
In relation to what exactly?

Your responses here speak loud and clear, well to me anyway.

If you do not have the ability to answer your own clarifying questions, then so be it.

As I said earlier on to you, if you are somewhat closed and/or dishonest at all, then you will still be as confused and bewildered as you are now.

So, if you are not forthcoming, then you will remain bamboozled.

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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick » Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm

Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
Remember that I am not the one who is confused and bewildered here. It is you who remains confused and bewildered here.
I think you are the one not remembering. I am not confused or bewildered.

I just don't know.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
You do not know if you, yourself, believe some thing or not, which is a considerably unusual thing to not yet know and understand.
I know and understand perfectly fine. You are really, really hearing things I am not saying.

I know and understand that I don't know if I believe in God.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
Your responses here speak loud and clear, well to me anyway.
Obviously it doesn't.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
If you do not have the ability to answer your own clarifying questions, then so be it.
That's a pretty awkward argument.

If I already know the answer why would I even ask the question?

Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
As I said earlier on to you, if you are somewhat closed and/or dishonest at all, then you will still be as confused and bewildered as you are now.
Q.E.D I am neither bewildered nor confused. So I am not closed.

I just don't know if I believe in God.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
So, if you are not forthcoming, then you will remain bamboozled.
I think you are bamboozled. Because I am forthcoming.

In what other language can i explain to you my state of being: I don't know if I believe in God and I don't know how to find out.

The way you are suggesting isn't working. Do you have any other ideas?

Age
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Age » Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
Remember that I am not the one who is confused and bewildered here. It is you who remains confused and bewildered here.
I think you are the one not remembering. I am not confused or bewildered.

I just don't know.
So, if you do not know some thing, and you are supposedly not confused nor bewildered, then what are you exactly?
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
You do not know if you, yourself, believe some thing or not, which is a considerably unusual thing to not yet know and understand.
I know and understand perfectly fine. You are really, really hearing things I am not saying.

I know and understand that I don't know if I believe in God.
You know and understand that you do not know if you believe in some thing or not, yet. Sounds very, very clear to me.
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
Your responses here speak loud and clear, well to me anyway.
Obviously it doesn't.
Why do you say and propose this?

What am I saying that is wrong exactly?
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
If you do not have the ability to answer your own clarifying questions, then so be it.
That's a pretty awkward argument.
Was it an argument, or just a plain fact?
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm
If I already know the answer why would I even ask the question?
How did you arrive at the answer if you did not even ask the question?

And, if you asked the question, and you do not have the ability to answer the question, then so be it.

If you do not even yet know if you, yourself, believe in some thing or not, then, if you never ask the question again, then that answer will remain forever. Therefore, you will remain forever more not knowing if you believe in some thing or not, which sounds like a very strange and peculiar place to be in.
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
As I said earlier on to you, if you are somewhat closed and/or dishonest at all, then you will still be as confused and bewildered as you are now.
Q.E.D I am neither bewildered nor confused. So I am not closed.

I just don't know if I believe in God.
Sounds, to me, like you are very confused and bewildered.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:31 pm
So, if you are not forthcoming, then you will remain bamboozled.
I think you are bamboozled. Because I am forthcoming.

In what other language can i explain to you my state of being: I don't know if I believe in God and I don't know how to find out.[/quote]

Then I would suggest asking some further clarifying questions.

I KNOW you do not yet know if you believe in God or not, so this does not need further explaining. You have made it very clear that you still confused about whether you believe or do not believe in God.

You know you do not yet know if you believe in God or not. So, it is clear you know you are confused, even if you do not like to be Honest about this fact. But remember, we are not talking about you knowing some other thing outside of you. We are talking about you knowing 'you', and if you do not yet even know whether you believe in some thing or not, then who else would you expect to know this obvious answer?
Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm
The way you are suggesting isn't working. Do you have any other ideas?
No, other than what I have suggested already. If you, yourself, can not work out what you, yourself, believe in or do not believe in, and you really are being OPEN and Honest with your self, then there does not look like there is any help for you at all.

Most people I know, know exactly what they believe in and/or do not believe in, and all I have to do with them is just ask them, to verify.

Do you also not know whether you believe in fairies or not? Or, do you know the answer to this question?

How about believing in self, do you know if you believe in your self? Or, do you not yet know the answer to this question as well?

Skepdick
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick » Thu May 21, 2020 3:57 pm

Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
So, if you do not know some thing, and you are supposedly not confused nor bewildered, then what are you exactly?
If I don't know something then I don't know something.

What's so difficult to understand?
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
You know and understand that you do not know if you believe in some thing or not, yet. Sounds very, very clear to me.
I hope so - I can't make it any clearer.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
Why do you say and propose this?

What am I saying that is wrong exactly?
Because you are assuming that I am "confused" and "bewildered".

There is neither confusion nor bewilderment in knowing that I don't know.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
Was it an argument, or just a plain fact?
I don't know. Tell me.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
How did you arrive at the answer if you did not even ask the question?
I didn't arrive at an answer. That's why I keep telling you that I don't know.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
And, if you asked the question, and you do not have the ability to answer the question, then so be it.
I don't terribly mind.

But if you keep asking me whether I believe in God, you may be terribly disappointed to know that I don't know.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
If you do not even yet know if you, yourself, believe in some thing or not, then, if you never ask the question again, then that answer will remain forever. Therefore, you will remain forever more not knowing if you believe in some thing or not, which sounds like a very strange and peculiar place to be in.
I don't know what's so strange and peculiar about it.

I don't know if I believe in flowers, elephants, mountains or airplanes either.

And nobody can tell me how to find out.

Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
Sounds, to me, like you are very confused and bewildered.
Sounds to me like the same kind of problem.

If you can't tell me how to determine whether I believe in God; I doubt you can tell me how to determine whether I am "confused and bewildered".
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
Then I would suggest asking some further clarifying questions.
What is there to clarify?
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
You know you do not yet know if you believe in God or not. So, it is clear you know you are confused, even if you do not like to be Honest about this fact.
What is it that I am confused about?
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
who else would you expect to know this obvious answer?
Obviously the answer isn't obvious. If it was obvious I would've answered it.

Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
No, other than what I have suggested already.
Then it's no use talking to you, is there?
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
If you, yourself, can not work out what you, yourself, believe in or do not believe in, and you really are being OPEN and Honest with your self, then there does not look like there is any help for you at all.
I am not trying to help me. I am trying to help others. I am trying to help people who ask me if I believe in God - I have no idea how to answer them.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
Most people I know, know exactly what they believe in and/or do not believe in, and all I have to do with them is just ask them, to verify.
You asked me - I told you I don't know.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
Do you also not know whether you believe in fairies or not? Or, do you know the answer to this question?
I know that I don't know the answer to that question either.
Age wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 pm
How about believing in self, do you know if you believe in your self? Or, do you not yet know the answer to this question as well?
I know that I don't know the answer to that question either.

Can you tell me how to find out if I believe in myself?

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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by attofishpi » Thu May 21, 2020 4:22 pm

Skepdick - thanks for the link:-
https://unvarnishedveritas.wordpress.co ... inference/

Excellent way to consider things from a neutral grounding. Agnosticism explained right there for me, finally..

By the way, the answer to your question is YES, you do believe that there is a 3rd party intelligence that generates our reality, you just are not sure whether it is 'divine' or other - but lets just call it God - I can't prove your belief, but I have had enough drawn out discussions with you for me to believe I am correct in my assertion that YOU DO BELIEVE!

Skepdick
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick » Thu May 21, 2020 4:32 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:22 pm
Skepdick - thanks for the link:-
https://unvarnishedveritas.wordpress.co ... inference/

Excellent way to consider things from a neutral grounding. Agnosticism explained right there for me, finally..
I am glad you found it useful.

attofishpi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:22 pm
By the way, the answer to your question is YES, you do believe that there is a 3rd party intelligence that generates our reality, you just are not sure whether it is 'divine' or other - but lets just call it God - I can't prove your belief, but I have had enough drawn out discussions with you for me to believe I am correct in my assertion that YOU DO BELIEVE!
Well, no.

I am at 0 decibels (p = 0.5) on the God issue.
Your belief about my belief is clearly above 0 decibels ( p > 0.5 )
I am at infinity decibels about myself (p=1) and so was Descartes.

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attofishpi
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by attofishpi » Thu May 21, 2020 4:52 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:32 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:22 pm
Skepdick - thanks for the link:-
https://unvarnishedveritas.wordpress.co ... inference/

Excellent way to consider things from a neutral grounding. Agnosticism explained right there for me, finally..
I am glad you found it useful.

attofishpi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:22 pm
By the way, the answer to your question is YES, you do believe that there is a 3rd party intelligence that generates our reality, you just are not sure whether it is 'divine' or other - but lets just call it God - I can't prove your belief, but I have had enough drawn out discussions with you for me to believe I am correct in my assertion that YOU DO BELIEVE!
Well, no.

I am at 0 decibels (p = 0.5) on the God issue.
Your belief about my belief is clearly above 0 decibels ( p > 0.5 )
I am at infinity decibels about myself (p=1) and so was Descartes.
Well, no. You think you are a what?

Skepdick
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick » Thu May 21, 2020 5:09 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:52 pm
Well, no. You think you are a what?
I am many things, but that's a linguistic artefact. I am not any noun.

Nouns fuck up human thinking.

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attofishpi
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by attofishpi » Thu May 21, 2020 5:17 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:09 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:52 pm
Well, no. You think you are a what?
I am many things, but that's a linguistic artefact. I am not any noun.

Nouns fuck up human thinking.
Ya, knew it was going down that path.

You think you are what? (take note of the term 'think')

Skepdick
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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by Skepdick » Thu May 21, 2020 5:22 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:17 pm
You think you are what? (take note of the term 'think')
Thinking is a verb.

In English, the answer to your question is a noun.

In the language of biology I am an organism.
In the language of systems theory I am a system.
In the language chemistry I am a bunch of atoms.
In the language of quantum physics I am a bunch of quarks, leptons.

What kind of answer are you fishing for and in which language?

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Re: What is Wisdom in Atheist Philosophy?

Post by attofishpi » Thu May 21, 2020 5:33 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:22 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:17 pm
You think you are what? (take note of the term 'think')
Thinking is a verb.

In English, the answer to your question is a noun.

In the language of biology I am an organism.
In the language of systems theory I am a system.
In the chemistry I am a bunch of atoms.
In the language of quantum physics I am a bunch of quarks, leptons.

What kind of answer are you fishing for?
One that I can feel superior by way of you lacking in some means of intellect no doubt.

Descartes - I... 'Am' is also a verb.

As you know, my education was rava limited so I gotta learn things on the fly

There are five basic sentence structures in the English language.
Subject-Verb. Examples: The boy plays. Jack eats. ...
Subject-Verb-Object. Examples: The girl pets the cat. ...
Subject-Verb-Adjective. Examples: Lisa is pretty. ...
Subject-Verb-Adverb. Examples: Maria laughs loudly. ...
Subject-Verb-Noun. Examples: I am the teacher.

Ergo:-
I verb therefore I verb?

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