Correctsurreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:02 pmThere is an external mind independent reality that exists outside our headAtla wrote:
I wonder whether people who are lost in the realism vs anti-realism issue even understand that human consciousness is representational ?
That there is a model of the world in our head and we experience that model
There is an internal mind dependent model of reality that exists inside our head
The model in our head is also a part of the reality that exists outside our head when viewed from a Gods eye perspective
So from an objective perspective [ the only true perspective ] we are also a part of reality
Reality is therefore not just something OUT THERE but also something IN HERE [ taps head ]
From my perspective everyones internal mind is a part of the reality OUT THERE
But from their perspective my internal mind is also a part of the reality OUT THERE
This is why reality must be treated as a single albeit ever changing entity in order to avoid confusing the internal with the external
Also as human beings we like to compartmentalise and put things into boxes but reality is just one continuous stream of existence
However in the grand scheme of things we know so little about reality
Trying to fully understand it is simply beyond us but we do what we can
Like all species we will eventually become extinct and so that will be the exact point at which our knowledge will stop
Currently the Standard Model Of Particle Physics can only account for a mere four per cent of the observable Universe
And so we cannot explain ninety six per cent of what we can actually observe and a hundred per cent of what we cannot observe
We just do what we can - the Universe will eventually outlive us by many orders of magnitude - while we will be less than atoms
All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
I mean that it's not made of matter as matter is normally concieved, not that it doesn't exist. Here material is contrasted with mental, not immaterial.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:02 pm Reality is BOTH inside and outside the human mind depending on perspective / reality is material [ if it was immaterial then it would not exist ]
Idealism says that everything is mentally constituted, not just perception. It's a basic misunderstanding of what perception is.Reality is BOTH indistinguishable and distinguishable from human understanding although ultimately everything is connected to everything else
Perception reality IS mentally constituted because perception IS mental [ how can it not be ]
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Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
What is critical is P1.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:47 pmI explained my position on the subject quite adequately in the other topics where I explicitly told you this topic is not important.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:38 amJust say you don't have any rational counter to the above.
And I also don't need a lecture in effective debate from somebody who never manages to make their premises support their conclusion. This thread being a case in point....
Your claim proceedes from:
P1 "all philosophies are said to fall into one of two primary categories"
And then progresses through:
P2 "whichever philosophical stance one take, it is reducible to either Realism [Philosophical] or Idealism"
To a conclusion...
C1"Thus to debate effectively one must be able to reduce one's "form" of philosophy to its "substance" else it would be mess to tangle with merely the varied "forms" and not dealing with its roots the substance."
Note I provided a link to support my premises P1, i.e.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism#Overview
I gave some indication as to what is 'materialism' and is parallel to Philosophical Realism
"Materialism" is Philosophical Materialism aka Philosophical Realism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
In addition, I have also highlighted idealism, the contrast to Philosophical Realism.
As usual, I cannot and don't want to waste time on too much details.
If you have a broad knowledge of Philosophy you will definite understand what I intend to present [Principle of Charity].
If you are in the know, what you need to do is to throw in a spanner to my argument and show which school of philosophy cannot fit into the above dichotomy?
Your above is rhetorical.You have a distinctly faulty premise in this case, merely being descriptively assigned to one of two categories doesn't make something reducible to that category. Cats fall into two categories: those that purr, and those that growl. Simba the Lion cannot be reduce to his growl, and my cat Mister GreasyButtsex does not reduce to his purr.
The dichotomy between Philosophical Realism and Philosophical ANTI-Realism is very distinct and self-explanatory.
This is like theism and atheism, so it is either or but it is at the utmost fundamental level.
As I stated, show me one school of philosophy that does not belong the either one or the other.
It is not the point of whether it is materialism or idealism, but the main point here is,And you have an arguably faulty one as well, the grouping into idealist and materialist schools is only really relevant when materialism and idealism are relevant. But they don't matter all that much to me, and many others don't care either, you get the same world where action precedes reaction and so on either way, so it's not really something that everyone has to obsess over.
does the essence of the said philosophy entails the claim
the 'given object' is independent and not entangled with the human conditions.
Note Kant's [Anti-realist] Challenge to the prove the existence of the external world which was taken up by GE Moore [Philosophical Realist] which was not a successful attempt.
Moore's Argument From Wiki;Proof of an External World
G. E. Moore
1. In the preface to the second edition of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason some words occur, which, in Professor Kemp Smith's translation, are rendered as follows:
2. It seems clear from these words that Kant thought it a matter of some importance to give a proof of "the existence of things outside of us" or perhaps rather (for it seems to me possible that the force of the German words is better rendered in this way) of "the existence of the things outside of us"; for had he not thought it important that a proof should be given, he would scarcely have called it a "scandal" that no proof had been given. And it seems clear also that he thought that the giving of such a proof was a task which fell properly within the province of philosophy; for, if it did not, the fact that no proof had been given could not possibly be a scandal to philosophy.
- It still remains a scandal to philosophy. . . that the existence of things outside of us. . . must be accepted merely on faith, and that, if anyone thinks good to doubt their existence, we are unable to counter his doubts by any satisfactory proof.1
http://web.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/readi ... Proof.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_is_one_hand
The contention is merely P1 which sufficient but I had explained above why it is not presented in details.But the worst thing here, is that your conclusion is unsupported by its premises yet again. If your premises had been good enough to demonstrate that a reduction to two schools were possible, that alone wouldn't justify any assumption that it was required, or that it was useful. Some wishy washy nonsense about roots won't do that for you.
I can't be taking lectures in what philosophy is all about from somebody whose work is as shoddy as yours.
The dichotomy is critical to expose your fact as fact is ultimately illusory and limited to one or two perspectives, as you claimed it is ONLY from the common language perspective.
To ground your 'fact' on "common language" is laughable.
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Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
How come your sentences do not have a full-stop.surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:02 pmThere is an external-mind-independent-reality that exists outside our head.Atla wrote:
I wonder whether people who are lost in the realism vs anti-realism issue even understand that human consciousness is representational ?
That there is a model of the world in our head and we experience that model
There is an internal-mind-dependent model of reality that exists inside our head.
The model in our head is also a part of the reality that exists outside our head when viewed from a Gods eye perspective.
So from an objective perspective [ the only true perspective ] we are also a part of reality
Reality is therefore not just something OUT THERE but also something IN HERE [ taps head ]
From my perspective everyones internal mind is a part of the reality OUT THERE
But from their perspective my internal mind is also a part of the reality OUT THERE
This is why reality must be treated as a single albeit ever changing entity in order to avoid confusing the internal with the external
Also as human beings we like to compartmentalise and put things into boxes but reality is just one continuous stream of existence
I agree to the above to an extent.
I'll re-present the above as;
- 1. There is an external-mind-independent-reality that exists outside our head.
2. There is an internal-mind-dependent model of reality that exists inside our head that projects [1] an external-mind-independent-reality that exists outside our head.
Note this thread that I read.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28671
There is no need to bring in God or God's perspective which will drive one into the illusory world.
All one need is to deal with what emerges, i.e. the given world, universe, self, thoughts, etc. which the self is entangled with.
Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
A model is a model, not an emergence, genius.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:28 am How come your sentences do not have a full-stop.
I agree to the above to an extent.
I'll re-present the above as;What is reality is an emergence.
- 1. There is an external-mind-independent-reality that exists outside our head.
2. There is an internal-mind-dependent model of reality that exists inside our head that projects [1] an external-mind-independent-reality that exists outside our head.
Note this thread that I read.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28671
There is no need to bring in God or God's perspective which will drive one into the illusory world.
All one need is to deal with what emerges, i.e. the given world, universe, self, thoughts, etc. which the self is entangled with.
God's perspective is an expression for objectivity here, it has nothing to do with God, genius. You are the one always mixing them like a religious fanatic.
Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
What if model accuracy is not necessary for a particular purpose?surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:09 pm The purpose of such models is to map as accurately as possible inside our head the mind independent reality that is outside of them
It will never be perfect although from a Gods eye perspective there is actually no distinction between the external and the internal
Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
That would be a model within the model I'm speaking of; once again you are not even wrong.Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:35 amI wonder whether people understand what the purpose/utility of mentally constructed representational models is.Atla wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:10 am I wonder whether people who are lost in the realism vs anti-realism issue, even understand that human consciousness is representational? That there is a model of the world in our head, and we experience that model.
Reality is NOT independent of the human mind; reality is NOT material.
Reality is NOT indistinguishable from human understanding and/or perception; reality is NOT mentally constituted.
Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
Why? Didn't they teach you about encapsulaton in your computer science class?
Man... you got ripped off!
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Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amWhat is critical is P1.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:47 pmI explained my position on the subject quite adequately in the other topics where I explicitly told you this topic is not important.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:38 am
Just say you don't have any rational counter to the above.
And I also don't need a lecture in effective debate from somebody who never manages to make their premises support their conclusion. This thread being a case in point....
Your claim proceedes from:
P1 "all philosophies are said to fall into one of two primary categories"
And then progresses through:
P2 "whichever philosophical stance one take, it is reducible to either Realism [Philosophical] or Idealism"
To a conclusion...
C1"Thus to debate effectively one must be able to reduce one's "form" of philosophy to its "substance" else it would be mess to tangle with merely the varied "forms" and not dealing with its roots the substance."
Note I provided a link to support my premises P1, i.e.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism#Overview
I gave some indication as to what is 'materialism' and is parallel to Philosophical Realism
"Materialism" is Philosophical Materialism aka Philosophical Realism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
In addition, I have also highlighted idealism, the contrast to Philosophical Realism.
As usual, I cannot and don't want to waste time on too much details.
If you have a broad knowledge of Philosophy you will definite understand what I intend to present [Principle of Charity].
If you are in the know, what you need to do is to throw in a spanner to my argument and show which school of philosophy cannot fit into the above dichotomy?
Fine, the FlashDanger school of philosophy is agnostic on this subject because the questions involved are based on misunderstandings of concepts, and actually everything works just fine whether you choose to conceptualise the universe in materialist or idealist terms.
The dichotomy between cats that growl and cats that purr is very real. The belief that one is important and the other not important has no bearing on my point. Merely belonging to a category does not entail reduction to that category.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amYour above is rhetorical.You have a distinctly faulty premise in this case, merely being descriptively assigned to one of two categories doesn't make something reducible to that category. Cats fall into two categories: those that purr, and those that growl. Simba the Lion cannot be reduce to his growl, and my cat Mister GreasyButtsex does not reduce to his purr.
The dichotomy between Philosophical Realism and Philosophical ANTI-Realism is very distinct and self-explanatory.
This is like theism and atheism, so it is either or but it is at the utmost fundamental level.
As I stated, show me one school of philosophy that does not belong the either one or the other.
You occupy many categories as a living breathing human being, to keep this conversation polite I will pretend that "philosopher" is one of them. But you cannot be reduced to your philosophy, you have important other categories to exist in such as 'rabid hater of a specific religion'. I can't very well reduce you your islamaphobia and reduce you to your philosophy, those are contradictory reductions. I mean if all of your philosophising is merely footnotes to your vendetta against Islam, then I guess that specific contradiction is resolved, in which case some other category to which you belong still won't be.
A bigger question would be what does that claim actually mean? It is not a question I can be bothered doing with you though.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amIt is not the point of whether it is materialism or idealism, but the main point here is,And you have an arguably faulty one as well, the grouping into idealist and materialist schools is only really relevant when materialism and idealism are relevant. But they don't matter all that much to me, and many others don't care either, you get the same world where action precedes reaction and so on either way, so it's not really something that everyone has to obsess over.
does the essence of the said philosophy entails the claim
the 'given object' is independent and not entangled with the human conditions.
Yeah. Well see Wittgenstein for a better solution.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 am Note Kant's [Anti-realist] Challenge to the prove the existence of the external world which was taken up by GE Moore [Philosophical Realist] which was not a successful attempt.
Moore's Argument From Wiki;Proof of an External World
G. E. Moore
1. In the preface to the second edition of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason some words occur, which, in Professor Kemp Smith's translation, are rendered as follows:
2. It seems clear from these words that Kant thought it a matter of some importance to give a proof of "the existence of things outside of us" or perhaps rather (for it seems to me possible that the force of the German words is better rendered in this way) of "the existence of the things outside of us"; for had he not thought it important that a proof should be given, he would scarcely have called it a "scandal" that no proof had been given. And it seems clear also that he thought that the giving of such a proof was a task which fell properly within the province of philosophy; for, if it did not, the fact that no proof had been given could not possibly be a scandal to philosophy.
- It still remains a scandal to philosophy. . . that the existence of things outside of us. . . must be accepted merely on faith, and that, if anyone thinks good to doubt their existence, we are unable to counter his doubts by any satisfactory proof.1
http://web.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/readi ... Proof.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_is_one_hand
To express your argument about fact, you have to use the word fact, and if you can't use the shared meaning of that word as understood by your audience, you are expressing a non-shared meaning, which invalidates your utterances. You are expressing ideas that can only be meaningfully understood if they are false.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amThe contention is merely P1 which sufficient but I had explained above why it is not presented in details.But the worst thing here, is that your conclusion is unsupported by its premises yet again. If your premises had been good enough to demonstrate that a reduction to two schools were possible, that alone wouldn't justify any assumption that it was required, or that it was useful. Some wishy washy nonsense about roots won't do that for you.
I can't be taking lectures in what philosophy is all about from somebody whose work is as shoddy as yours.
The dichotomy is critical to expose your fact as fact is ultimately illusory and limited to one or two perspectives, as you claimed it is ONLY from the common language perspective.
To ground your 'fact' on "common language" is laughable.
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Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
It is just a figure of speech and so is not meant to be taken literally as I dont actually believe in GodVeritas Aequitas wrote:
There is no need to bring in God or Gods perspective which will drive one into the illusory world
It simply means to look at reality more objectively from the outside even though that is not possible
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Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
Then that purpose would be relatively trivial by comparison but for the serious businessSkepdick wrote:
What if model accuracy is not necessary for a particular purpose
of existence or survival and knowledge acquisition it needs to be as accurate as possible
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Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
If you an agnostic, by default you belong to the anti-realist school.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:34 pmFine, the FlashDanger school of philosophy is agnostic on this subject because the questions involved are based on misunderstandings of concepts, and actually everything works just fine whether you choose to conceptualise the universe in materialist or idealist terms.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amWhat is critical is P1.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:47 pm
I explained my position on the subject quite adequately in the other topics where I explicitly told you this topic is not important.
And I also don't need a lecture in effective debate from somebody who never manages to make their premises support their conclusion. This thread being a case in point....
Your claim proceedes from:
P1 "all philosophies are said to fall into one of two primary categories"
And then progresses through:
P2 "whichever philosophical stance one take, it is reducible to either Realism [Philosophical] or Idealism"
To a conclusion...
C1"Thus to debate effectively one must be able to reduce one's "form" of philosophy to its "substance" else it would be mess to tangle with merely the varied "forms" and not dealing with its roots the substance."
Note I provided a link to support my premises P1, i.e.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism#Overview
I gave some indication as to what is 'materialism' and is parallel to Philosophical Realism
"Materialism" is Philosophical Materialism aka Philosophical Realism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
In addition, I have also highlighted idealism, the contrast to Philosophical Realism.
As usual, I cannot and don't want to waste time on too much details.
If you have a broad knowledge of Philosophy you will definite understand what I intend to present [Principle of Charity].
If you are in the know, what you need to do is to throw in a spanner to my argument and show which school of philosophy cannot fit into the above dichotomy?
If you are an anti-realist, there is no way you can ground your 'fact is fact' thus never a value or evaluative.
That is because the 'referent' [term imply Philosophical Realism] of your fact has to be independent of your description of it and independent of yourself. That is essentially Philosophical Realism.
The above is not a good analogy.The dichotomy between cats that growl and cats that purr is very real. The belief that one is important and the other not important has no bearing on my point. Merely belonging to a category does not entail reduction to that category.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amYour above is rhetorical.You have a distinctly faulty premise in this case, merely being descriptively assigned to one of two categories doesn't make something reducible to that category. Cats fall into two categories: those that purr, and those that growl. Simba the Lion cannot be reduce to his growl, and my cat Mister GreasyButtsex does not reduce to his purr.
The dichotomy between Philosophical Realism and Philosophical ANTI-Realism is very distinct and self-explanatory.
This is like theism and atheism, so it is either or but it is at the utmost fundamental level.
As I stated, show me one school of philosophy that does not belong the either one or the other.
I note all cats [species] purr ["happy"] and growl ["angry"], it is just a matter of degrees.
If done, this can be verified from fMRI imagings of the cats [species] activities in relation to the parts of the brain that are activated for purring and growling.
Biggest Cat That Purrs And Meows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXhfZRE08ko
All human actions are reducible the inherent program to survive.You occupy many categories as a living breathing human being, to keep this conversation polite I will pretend that "philosopher" is one of them. But you cannot be reduced to your philosophy, you have important other categories to exist in such as 'rabid hater of a specific religion'.
I can't very well reduce you your islamaphobia and reduce you to your philosophy, those are contradictory reductions. I mean if all of your philosophising is merely footnotes to your vendetta against Islam, then I guess that specific contradiction is resolved, in which case some other category to which you belong still won't be.
My philosophy [all divisions of it] is reduced to philosophical anti-realism.
To resort to the term 'Islamophobia' indicate your low level of philosophical reasoning and integrity drawn by the mob thinking.
There is genuine RATIONAL fears and threat from the core ideology of Islam and the commands of Allah which will influence a critical quantum of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts upon non-believers, as such, Islamophobia is an oxymoron.
This is so fundamental and your ignoring of it is due to ignorance.A bigger question would be what does that claim actually mean? It is not a question I can be bothered doing with you though.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amIt is not the point of whether it is materialism or idealism, but the main point here is,And you have an arguably faulty one as well, the grouping into idealist and materialist schools is only really relevant when materialism and idealism are relevant. But they don't matter all that much to me, and many others don't care either, you get the same world where action precedes reaction and so on either way, so it's not really something that everyone has to obsess over.
does the essence of the said philosophy entails the claim
the 'given object' is independent and not entangled with the human conditions.
I have read the later-Wittgenstein 'On Certainty' quite thoroughly some time ago [need to refresh].Yeah. Well see Wittgenstein for a better solution.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 am Note Kant's [Anti-realist] Challenge to the prove the existence of the external world which was taken up by GE Moore [Philosophical Realist] which was not a successful attempt.Moore's Argument From Wiki;Proof of an External World
G. E. Moore
1. In the preface to the second edition of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason some words occur, which, in Professor Kemp Smith's translation, are rendered as follows:
2. It seems clear from these words that Kant thought it a matter of some importance to give a proof of "the existence of things outside of us" or perhaps rather (for it seems to me possible that the force of the German words is better rendered in this way) of "the existence of the things outside of us"; for had he not thought it important that a proof should be given, he would scarcely have called it a "scandal" that no proof had been given. And it seems clear also that he thought that the giving of such a proof was a task which fell properly within the province of philosophy; for, if it did not, the fact that no proof had been given could not possibly be a scandal to philosophy.
- It still remains a scandal to philosophy. . . that the existence of things outside of us. . . must be accepted merely on faith, and that, if anyone thinks good to doubt their existence, we are unable to counter his doubts by any satisfactory proof.1
http://web.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/readi ... Proof.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_is_one_hand
What I noted is the later-Wittgenstein was not the analytic philosopher he was in his earlier years.
I understood, the later-Wittgenstein would not agree a fact is an independent fact by itself propped by language only, but it is related and entangled with the human conditions. You dispute that, show me why?
"You" keep asserting but what you have forgotten and overlooked is the 'asserter's' role in all the above.To express your argument about fact, you have to use the word fact, and if you can't use the shared meaning of that word as understood by your audience, you are expressing a non-shared meaning, which invalidates your utterances. You are expressing ideas that can only be meaningfully understood if they are false.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amThe contention is merely P1 which sufficient but I had explained above why it is not presented in details.But the worst thing here, is that your conclusion is unsupported by its premises yet again. If your premises had been good enough to demonstrate that a reduction to two schools were possible, that alone wouldn't justify any assumption that it was required, or that it was useful. Some wishy washy nonsense about roots won't do that for you.
I can't be taking lectures in what philosophy is all about from somebody whose work is as shoddy as yours.
The dichotomy is critical to expose your fact as fact is ultimately illusory and limited to one or two perspectives, as you claimed it is ONLY from the common language perspective.
To ground your 'fact' on "common language" is laughable.
It is a fact, "You" are part and parcel of reality.
There is no two realities, i.e. 'you' and 'the external world'.
Thus in the ultimate sense* you cannot separate and disentangle the facts, words representing the fact, the referent of the fact into two realities.
Your problem is you are unable to shift to the paradigm of the ultimate sense of reality.
Why? It is because of the existential crisis that always that compelled and habitualized you to look outwards by default to the external world for food, security, warnings of threat to facilitate survival.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
If you an agnostic, by default you belong to the anti-realist school.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:34 pmFine, the FlashDanger school of philosophy is agnostic on this subject because the questions involved are based on misunderstandings of concepts, and actually everything works just fine whether you choose to conceptualise the universe in materialist or idealist terms.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amWhat is critical is P1.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:47 pm
I explained my position on the subject quite adequately in the other topics where I explicitly told you this topic is not important.
And I also don't need a lecture in effective debate from somebody who never manages to make their premises support their conclusion. This thread being a case in point....
Your claim proceedes from:
P1 "all philosophies are said to fall into one of two primary categories"
And then progresses through:
P2 "whichever philosophical stance one take, it is reducible to either Realism [Philosophical] or Idealism"
To a conclusion...
C1"Thus to debate effectively one must be able to reduce one's "form" of philosophy to its "substance" else it would be mess to tangle with merely the varied "forms" and not dealing with its roots the substance."
Note I provided a link to support my premises P1, i.e.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism#Overview
I gave some indication as to what is 'materialism' and is parallel to Philosophical Realism
"Materialism" is Philosophical Materialism aka Philosophical Realism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
In addition, I have also highlighted idealism, the contrast to Philosophical Realism.
As usual, I cannot and don't want to waste time on too much details.
If you have a broad knowledge of Philosophy you will definite understand what I intend to present [Principle of Charity].
If you are in the know, what you need to do is to throw in a spanner to my argument and show which school of philosophy cannot fit into the above dichotomy?
If you are an anti-realist, there is no way you can ground your 'fact is fact' thus never a value or evaluative.
That is because the 'referent' of your fact has to be independent of your description of it and independent of yourself. That is essentially Philosophical Realism.
The above is not a good analogy.The dichotomy between cats that growl and cats that purr is very real. The belief that one is important and the other not important has no bearing on my point. Merely belonging to a category does not entail reduction to that category.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amYour above is rhetorical.You have a distinctly faulty premise in this case, merely being descriptively assigned to one of two categories doesn't make something reducible to that category. Cats fall into two categories: those that purr, and those that growl. Simba the Lion cannot be reduce to his growl, and my cat Mister GreasyButtsex does not reduce to his purr.
The dichotomy between Philosophical Realism and Philosophical ANTI-Realism is very distinct and self-explanatory.
This is like theism and atheism, so it is either or but it is at the utmost fundamental level.
As I stated, show me one school of philosophy that does not belong the either one or the other.
I note all cats purr ["happy"] and growl ["angry"], it is just a matter of degrees.
All human actions are reducible the inherent program to survive.You occupy many categories as a living breathing human being, to keep this conversation polite I will pretend that "philosopher" is one of them. But you cannot be reduced to your philosophy, you have important other categories to exist in such as 'rabid hater of a specific religion'.
I can't very well reduce you your islamaphobia and reduce you to your philosophy, those are contradictory reductions. I mean if all of your philosophising is merely footnotes to your vendetta against Islam, then I guess that specific contradiction is resolved, in which case some other category to which you belong still won't be.
My philosophy [all divisions of it] is reduced to philosophical anti-realism.
To resort to the term 'Islamophobia' indicate your low level of philosophical reasoning and integrity drawn by the mob thinking.
There is genuine RATIONAL fears and threat from the core ideology of Islam and the commands of Allah which will influence a critical quantum of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts upon non-believers, as such, Islamophobia is an oxymoron.
This is so fundamental and your ignoring of it is due to ignorance.A bigger question would be what does that claim actually mean? It is not a question I can be bothered doing with you though.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amIt is not the point of whether it is materialism or idealism, but the main point here is,And you have an arguably faulty one as well, the grouping into idealist and materialist schools is only really relevant when materialism and idealism are relevant. But they don't matter all that much to me, and many others don't care either, you get the same world where action precedes reaction and so on either way, so it's not really something that everyone has to obsess over.
does the essence of the said philosophy entails the claim
the 'given object' is independent and not entangled with the human conditions.
I have read the later-Wittgenstein 'On Certainty' quite thoroughly some time ago [need to refresh].Yeah. Well see Wittgenstein for a better solution.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 am Note Kant's [Anti-realist] Challenge to the prove the existence of the external world which was taken up by GE Moore [Philosophical Realist] which was not a successful attempt.Moore's Argument From Wiki;Proof of an External World
G. E. Moore
1. In the preface to the second edition of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason some words occur, which, in Professor Kemp Smith's translation, are rendered as follows:
2. It seems clear from these words that Kant thought it a matter of some importance to give a proof of "the existence of things outside of us" or perhaps rather (for it seems to me possible that the force of the German words is better rendered in this way) of "the existence of the things outside of us"; for had he not thought it important that a proof should be given, he would scarcely have called it a "scandal" that no proof had been given. And it seems clear also that he thought that the giving of such a proof was a task which fell properly within the province of philosophy; for, if it did not, the fact that no proof had been given could not possibly be a scandal to philosophy.
- It still remains a scandal to philosophy. . . that the existence of things outside of us. . . must be accepted merely on faith, and that, if anyone thinks good to doubt their existence, we are unable to counter his doubts by any satisfactory proof.1
http://web.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/readi ... Proof.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_is_one_hand
What I noted is the later-Wittgenstein was not the analytic philosopher he was in his earlier years.
I understood, the later-Wittgenstein would not agree a fact is an independent fact by itself propped by language only, but it is related and entangled with the human conditions. You dispute that, show me why?
"You" keep asserting but what you have forgotten and overlooked is the 'asserter's' role in all the above.To express your argument about fact, you have to use the word fact, and if you can't use the shared meaning of that word as understood by your audience, you are expressing a non-shared meaning, which invalidates your utterances. You are expressing ideas that can only be meaningfully understood if they are false.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:06 amThe contention is merely P1 which sufficient but I had explained above why it is not presented in details.But the worst thing here, is that your conclusion is unsupported by its premises yet again. If your premises had been good enough to demonstrate that a reduction to two schools were possible, that alone wouldn't justify any assumption that it was required, or that it was useful. Some wishy washy nonsense about roots won't do that for you.
I can't be taking lectures in what philosophy is all about from somebody whose work is as shoddy as yours.
The dichotomy is critical to expose your fact as fact is ultimately illusory and limited to one or two perspectives, as you claimed it is ONLY from the common language perspective.
To ground your 'fact' on "common language" is laughable.
It is a fact, "You" are part and parcel of reality.
There is no two realities, i.e. 'you' and 'the external world'.
Thus in the ultimate sense* you cannot separate and disentangle the facts, words representing the fact, the referent of the fact into two realities.
Your problem is you are unable to shift to the paradigm of the ultimate sense of reality.
Why? It is because of the existential crisis that always compelled and habitualized you to look outwards by default to the external world for food, security, warnings of threat to facilitate survival.
Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
What if precision is not necessary for survival?surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:46 am Then that purpose would be relatively trivial by comparison but for the serious business
of existence or survival and knowledge acquisition it needs to be as accurate as possible
In fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary - your eyes are very imprecise instruments. They distort reality quite a bit - it's an adaptation given our habitat.
If they were precise - they'd probably be useless to you.
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Re: All Philosophies Reduced to Realism vs Idealism
What matters is the degree of precision because being absolutely precise is not necessarily good for an organismSkepdick wrote:
What if precision is not necessary for survival
In fact there is plenty of evidence to the contrary - your eyes are very imprecise instruments
If they were precise - they would probably be useless
The precision of its sense organs therefore has to be relative to its environment in order to maximise its survival
In humans the dominant organ is actually the brain rather than the eye
This could be said for any organism but in our case it is just more true