What is Truth?

[Nick_A]

There is something about a human being that though living in a universe of partial truths is attracted to climb the mountain in the direction where all partial truths reside as ONE.

might be better to think of imperfect truths rather that partial truths

and, if I'm understandin' you, the notion is horrifyin': I might be lookin' to get to god, but I sure ain't lookin' to merge with him or be assimilated by him

I wasn't built to kneel or be subsumed

evolving in the direction of the ONE outside of time and space doesn't mean becoming the source. We are creatures of creation existing in time and space.

Imagine yourself on the ground floor of a building. Your awareness is limited to the room you are in. Now go to the first floor and look out the window. We become aware of the building around us. Now go to the second floor and look out the window. Your consciousness has expanded to include the city you are in.

The point is that human consciousness can rise in the same way. Where most live on the ground floor, what would it be like to have the conscious awareness of the third floor? A person or animal living at the ground floor and moment to moment cannot be aware of humanity living in eternity or witnesses their life as a whole. Buddha was said to have that quality of consciousness.

[henry quirk]

There is something about a human being that though living in a universe of partial truths is attracted to climb the mountain in the direction where all partial truths reside as ONE.

might be better to think of imperfect truths rather that partial truths

and, if I'm understandin' you, the notion is horrifyin': I might be lookin' to get to god, but I sure ain't lookin' to merge with him or be assimilated by him

I wasn't built to kneel or be subsumed

evolving in the direction of the ONE outside of time and space doesn't mean becoming the source. We are creatures of creation existing in time and space.

Imagine yourself on the ground floor of a building. Your awareness is limited to the room you are in. Now go to the first floor and look out the window. We become aware of the building around us. Now go to the second floor and look out the window. Your consciousness has expanded to include the city you are in.

The point is that human consciousness can rise in the same way. Where most live on the ground floor, what would it be like to have the conscious awareness of the third floor? A person or animal living at the ground floor and moment to moment cannot be aware of humanity living in eternity or witnesses their life as a whole. Buddha was said to have that quality of consciousness.

I get it now

[Dubious]

There is something about a human being that though living in a universe of partial truths is attracted to climb the mountain in the direction where all partial truths reside as ONE.

might be better to think of imperfect truths rather that partial truths

and, if I'm understandin' you, the notion is horrifyin': I might be lookin' to get to god, but I sure ain't lookin' to merge with him or be assimilated by him

I wasn't built to kneel or be subsumed

evolving in the direction of the ONE outside of time and space doesn't mean becoming the source. We are creatures of creation existing in time and space.

Imagine yourself on the ground floor of a building. Your awareness is limited to the room you are in. Now go to the first floor and look out the window. We become aware of the building around us. Now go to the second floor and look out the window. Your consciousness has expanded to include the city you are in.

The point is that human consciousness can rise in the same way. Where most live on the ground floor, what would it be like to have the conscious awareness of the third floor? A person or animal living at the ground floor and moment to moment cannot be aware of humanity living in eternity or witnesses their life as a whole. Buddha was said to have that quality of consciousness.

Human consciousness being finite, the closer one is to an object the greater its resolution; further away there are more objects in its view but with less resolution, its outlines diminishing becoming more amorphous. Humanity living in eternity is so far removed from anything consciousness can resolve it becomes thoroughly meaningless, something never encountered but only speculated. Even though there is a spectrum of consciousness among humans, the Buddha was human after all with a consciousness to match though of a higher order than most.

[seeds]

Human consciousness being finite, the closer one is to an object the greater its resolution; further away there are more objects in its view but with less resolution, its outlines diminishing becoming more amorphous. Humanity living in eternity is so far removed from anything consciousness can resolve it becomes thoroughly meaningless, something never encountered but only speculated. Even though there is a spectrum of consciousness among humans, the Buddha was human after all with a consciousness to match though of a higher order than most.

You seem to be offering an alternate version of the old “forest and the tree” axiom.

However, to counter your accusation of “humanity living in eternity” being meaningless, I suggest that what you trade-off in resolution of the objects, is compensated by a greater perception of a “bigger picture.”

Btw, what does "humanity living in eternity" even mean?
_______

[Nick_A]

There is something about a human being that though living in a universe of partial truths is attracted to climb the mountain in the direction where all partial truths reside as ONE.

might be better to think of imperfect truths rather that partial truths

and, if I'm understandin' you, the notion is horrifyin': I might be lookin' to get to god, but I sure ain't lookin' to merge with him or be assimilated by him

I wasn't built to kneel or be subsumed

evolving in the direction of the ONE outside of time and space doesn't mean becoming the source. We are creatures of creation existing in time and space.

Imagine yourself on the ground floor of a building. Your awareness is limited to the room you are in. Now go to the first floor and look out the window. We become aware of the building around us. Now go to the second floor and look out the window. Your consciousness has expanded to include the city you are in.

The point is that human consciousness can rise in the same way. Where most live on the ground floor, what would it be like to have the conscious awareness of the third floor? A person or animal living at the ground floor and moment to moment cannot be aware of humanity living in eternity or witnesses their life as a whole. Buddha was said to have that quality of consciousness.

Human consciousness being finite, the closer one is to an object the greater its resolution; further away there are more objects in its view but with less resolution, its outlines diminishing becoming more amorphous. Humanity living in eternity is so far removed from anything consciousness can resolve it becomes thoroughly meaningless, something never encountered but only speculated. Even though there is a spectrum of consciousness among humans, the Buddha was human after all with a consciousness to match though of a higher order than most.

Have you ever considered that levels of human consciousness is like an onion. We know that we can gradually peel off layers of the onion revealing another skin. That skin can be pulled away revealing another skin and so on.

Levels of human consciouness is like this. We can through meditation, contemplation, and prayer experience a quality of consciousness hidden within it. This quality reconciles the outer level. At this level a person is capable of experiencing the quality of consciousness below it and the reality in which they are reconciled

We admit the duality of hot and cold for example. Is a quality of consciousness possible in which they are the same?. We live by extremes but is it possible the duality can be reconciled from a higher level of consciousness Man is theoretically capable of? Can a person experience the forest of higher consciousness by not being caught up in the duality of the trees. Can a person peel away the onion skin to reveal the reality hidden by it?

This is what a real Man is IMO. A person capable of consciously experiencing both the life of trees (duality) and the life of the forest in which they exist underneath as one. Can a human become capable of experiencing the reality of both?

[Dubious]

Human consciousness being finite, the closer one is to an object the greater its resolution; further away there are more objects in its view but with less resolution, its outlines diminishing becoming more amorphous. Humanity living in eternity is so far removed from anything consciousness can resolve it becomes thoroughly meaningless, something never encountered but only speculated. Even though there is a spectrum of consciousness among humans, the Buddha was human after all with a consciousness to match though of a higher order than most.

You seem to be offering an alternate version of the old “forest and the tree” axiom.

However, to counter your accusation of “humanity living in eternity” being meaningless, I suggest that what you trade-off in resolution of the objects, is compensated by a greater perception of a “bigger picture.”

Btw, what does "humanity living in eternity" even mean?
_______

My ONLY point was the closer a dot is to one's eye the easier it is to see based on a more intense focus of the object. This comes at the expense of seeing surrounding objects as less determinate or possibly not at all. Apply the analogy to consciousness and we have the same fallout. You will for sure have a "bigger picture" at the top of a high-rise but everything will become correspondingly smaller much less in focus. Just as eyesight has a limited visual palette so has consciousness as ordered by a physical brain. I don't think there's any mystery here!

As for "humanity living in eternity", is such an obscene hyperbole impossible to ponder to its full extent. It goes beyond the weirdest outpourings of the imagination to not only seem ludicrous but advancing to the very limits of what can only be described as demented.

[Nick_A]

Dubious

As for "humanity living in eternity", is such an obscene hyperbole impossible to ponder to its full extent. It goes beyond the weirdest outpourings of the imagination to not only seem ludicrous but advancing to the very limits of what can only be described as demented.

The sad part is if this weirds you out, contremplation of dimensions may drive you to drink. The first three dimensions are the dimensions of space: length width, and depth. Existence itself begins in the fourth dimension or the repetition of a moment.

But a person's life is more than a moment but a series of repetitions of a moment which is eternity. The sixth dimension would be all possible eternities

Does your life already exist in eternity? Can a person become conscious of their life in eternity? To you it is demented. But what if it is not? Some are not afraid to contemplate such things.

[Dubious]

Does your life already exist in eternity? Can a person become conscious of their life in eternity? To you it is demented. But what if it is not? Some are not afraid to contemplate such things.

Contemplate as much as you like. When you're born created through those processes of chemistry called sex into whose service we are called by hormones, you're already on a schedule which inevitably leads to conclusion, sooner for some, later for others.

Can a person become conscious of their life in eternity?

No! A person or anything that lives can only be conscious of their life in the here & now wherever or when that may be. It's not a play that goes on forever! It's no different for you but you're certainly free to contemplate as much as you like regardless of sense, logic or meaning. That's how Alice in Wonderland got written though I'd venture to say there's much more of substance in it than anything you have so far imagined. Not least, eternity can only exist when time itself ceases to exist whether holistically or individualistically. Death, non-existence precludes time. That is the unavoidable eternity which humans and all life - as forced by the nature which created you - are destined to inherit...to be as all that came before!

[Belinda]

There is something about a human being that though living in a universe of partial truths is attracted to climb the mountain in the direction where all partial truths reside as ONE.

might be better to think of imperfect truths rather that partial truths

and, if I'm understandin' you, the notion is horrifyin': I might be lookin' to get to god, but I sure ain't lookin' to merge with him or be assimilated by him

I wasn't built to kneel or be subsumed

evolving in the direction of the ONE outside of time and space doesn't mean becoming the source. We are creatures of creation existing in time and space.

Imagine yourself on the ground floor of a building. Your awareness is limited to the room you are in. Now go to the first floor and look out the window. We become aware of the building around us. Now go to the second floor and look out the window. Your consciousness has expanded to include the city you are in.

The point is that human consciousness can rise in the same way. Where most live on the ground floor, what would it be like to have the conscious awareness of the third floor? A person or animal living at the ground floor and moment to moment cannot be aware of humanity living in eternity or witnesses their life as a whole. Buddha was said to have that quality of consciousness.

Human consciousness being finite, the closer one is to an object the greater its resolution; further away there are more objects in its view but with less resolution, its outlines diminishing becoming more amorphous. Humanity living in eternity is so far removed from anything consciousness can resolve it becomes thoroughly meaningless, something never encountered but only speculated. Even though there is a spectrum of consciousness among humans, the Buddha was human after all with a consciousness to match though of a higher order than most.

By "closer" do you mean knowledge by acquaintance , some actually lived and remembered experience? In which case vicarious experience would be further away, and if the reported knowledge came from a respected source the knowledge would be 'closer' than knowledge transmitted by someone with a reputation for telling lies.

[Dubious]

evolving in the direction of the ONE outside of time and space doesn't mean becoming the source. We are creatures of creation existing in time and space.

Imagine yourself on the ground floor of a building. Your awareness is limited to the room you are in. Now go to the first floor and look out the window. We become aware of the building around us. Now go to the second floor and look out the window. Your consciousness has expanded to include the city you are in.

The point is that human consciousness can rise in the same way. Where most live on the ground floor, what would it be like to have the conscious awareness of the third floor? A person or animal living at the ground floor and moment to moment cannot be aware of humanity living in eternity or witnesses their life as a whole. Buddha was said to have that quality of consciousness.

Human consciousness being finite, the closer one is to an object the greater its resolution; further away there are more objects in its view but with less resolution, its outlines diminishing becoming more amorphous. Humanity living in eternity is so far removed from anything consciousness can resolve it becomes thoroughly meaningless, something never encountered but only speculated. Even though there is a spectrum of consciousness among humans, the Buddha was human after all with a consciousness to match though of a higher order than most.

By "closer" do you mean knowledge by acquaintance , some actually lived and remembered experience? In which case vicarious experience would be further away, and if the reported knowledge came from a respected source the knowledge would be 'closer' than knowledge transmitted by someone with a reputation for telling lies.

Not really. Had I meant that I would have expressed myself differently.

[Nick_A]

There is something about a human being that though living in a universe of partial truths is attracted to climb the mountain in the direction where all partial truths reside as ONE.

That makes a lot of sense since humans were always driven to a type of understanding forged through synthesis...sets within sets.

The Socratic axiom "Know Thyself" suggest that there is a self and a quality that knows it or observes it. You refer to the limitations of the self and its senses. But what are the limitations of that which knows thyself?

I remember Rick once posted an article on eternal recurrence. It is really an article on life in eternity. Ones life repeats. You can blindly deny it but isn't this the same as blind belief?

[Dubious]

The Socratic axiom "Know Thyself" suggest that there is a self and a quality that knows it or observes it. You refer to the limitations of the self and its senses. But what are the limitations of that which knows thyself?

To Know Thyself may not be the best advice
When showing less of virtue and more of vice
For conscience is in retreat by those who know
That vice is the soil in which they grow.

Knowing one's self can be extremely problematic and not recommended for everyone but I know how much these trite little sayings mean to you. To know thyself defines only ONE thing for me...the truth of our personal limitations which I think overlaps quite well with what Socrates meant.

I remember Rick once posted an article on eternal recurrence. It is really an article on life in eternity. Ones life repeats. You can blindly deny it but isn't this the same as blind belief?

Your life is the piece of meat you're wearing until its outworn. It starts that way and as it depreciates eventually ceases to function. Your body is literally a physical time machine. That's your fate, mine and everyone else's. The most people like you can do for whom this dead-end scenario is not acceptable is to speculate on how it may supposedly continue even if there's never been a single exception of nature's methods.

Further, we can't name a single reason or purpose why the side-effect of death should subsequently allow one to live longer hyperbolizing even that into eternal life! No one ever ventured to explain that insurmountable paradox to give it the slightest degree of probability; instead it's carried forward by a blind belief in IF statements! When life is done, such speculations are no-longer necessary having been not merely superfluous but so thoroughly cracked that if the universe could laugh it would resound throughout its extent instantaneously!

[Nick_A]

The Socratic axiom "Know Thyself" suggest that there is a self and a quality that knows it or observes it. You refer to the limitations of the self and its senses. But what are the limitations of that which knows thyself?

To Know Thyself may not be the best advice
When showing less of virtue and more of vice
For conscience is in retreat by those who know
That vice is the soil in which they grow.

Knowing one's self can be extremely problematic and not recommended for everyone but I know how much these trite little sayings mean to you. To know thyself defines only ONE thing for me...the truth of our personal limitations which I think overlaps quite well with what Socrates meant.

I remember Rick once posted an article on eternal recurrence. It is really an article on life in eternity. Ones life repeats. You can blindly deny it but isn't this the same as blind belief?

Your life is the piece of meat you're wearing until its outworn. It starts that way and as it depreciates eventually ceases to function. Your body is literally a physical time machine. That's your fate, mine and everyone else's. The most people like you can do for whom this dead-end scenario is not acceptable is to speculate on how it may supposedly continue even if there's never been a single exception of nature's methods.

Further, we can't name a single reason or purpose why the side-effect of death should subsequently allow one to live longer hyperbolizing even that into eternal life! No one ever ventured to explain that insurmountable paradox to give it the slightest degree of probability; instead it's carried forward by a blind belief in IF statements! When life is done, such speculations are no-longer necessary having been not merely superfluous but so thoroughly cracked that if the universe could laugh it would resound throughout its extent instantaneously!

To know thyself defines only ONE thing for me...the truth of our personal limitations which I think overlaps quite well with what Socrates meant.

Yes but what does it mean?

Before the question of life after death or conscious evolution, the essential question is the need for "meaning."

Plato - Man, A being in search of meaning.

You limit yourself to the physical body and the five senses. Are they sufficient to feel meaning? Are those who feel that the source of meaning is beyond the physical body just nuts or possibly have experienced what you are yet to experience?

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.. Einstein

Is there a spiritual origin which gives meaning to facts to the extent that we are drawn to it and feel humble in front to it? Why isn't meaning experienced by the five senses prove insufficient? Are these people ignorant or inwardly aware of the physical limitations we rely on to experience human meaning?

[Dubious]

The Socratic axiom "Know Thyself" suggest that there is a self and a quality that knows it or observes it. You refer to the limitations of the self and its senses. But what are the limitations of that which knows thyself?

To Know Thyself may not be the best advice
When showing less of virtue and more of vice
For conscience is in retreat by those who know
That vice is the soil in which they grow.

Knowing one's self can be extremely problematic and not recommended for everyone but I know how much these trite little sayings mean to you. To know thyself defines only ONE thing for me...the truth of our personal limitations which I think overlaps quite well with what Socrates meant.

I remember Rick once posted an article on eternal recurrence. It is really an article on life in eternity. Ones life repeats. You can blindly deny it but isn't this the same as blind belief?

Your life is the piece of meat you're wearing until its outworn. It starts that way and as it depreciates eventually ceases to function. Your body is literally a physical time machine. That's your fate, mine and everyone else's. The most people like you can do for whom this dead-end scenario is not acceptable is to speculate on how it may supposedly continue even if there's never been a single exception of nature's methods.

Further, we can't name a single reason or purpose why the side-effect of death should subsequently allow one to live longer hyperbolizing even that into eternal life! No one ever ventured to explain that insurmountable paradox to give it the slightest degree of probability; instead it's carried forward by a blind belief in IF statements! When life is done, such speculations are no-longer necessary having been not merely superfluous but so thoroughly cracked that if the universe could laugh it would resound throughout its extent instantaneously!

To know thyself defines only ONE thing for me...the truth of our personal limitations which I think overlaps quite well with what Socrates meant.

Yes but what does it mean?

Before the question of life after death or conscious evolution, the essential question is the need for "meaning."

Plato - Man, A being in search of meaning.

You limit yourself to the physical body and the five senses. Are they sufficient to feel meaning? Are those who feel that the source of meaning is beyond the physical body just nuts or possibly have experienced what you are yet to experience?

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.. Einstein

Is there a spiritual origin which gives meaning to facts to the extent that we are drawn to it and feel humble in front to it? Why isn't meaning experienced by the five senses prove insufficient? Are these people ignorant or inwardly aware of the physical limitations we rely on to experience human meaning?

Some like you need "meaning" as a condition of life. When you're dead, meaning will have proved itself as mortal as you once were. The same goes for Plato, Einstein, Simone, all those you so much like to quote. Unless you're alive and kicking, meaning has no meaning. Still for many of the living there is an easy acceptance of no meaning at all to be gleaned in an utterly cold universe except what imagination creates for itself as an anodyne.

Many, like myself, aren't in the least fazed by that. Those who so yearn for it yield to whatever imagination supplies no matter how obtuse or intellectual it may be. To paraphrase Nietzsche the errors we believe in offer more comfort than any truth that's out there; the main one being that as animals our demise is forced upon us in exactly the same manner as any other creature, no exceptions. Having a bigger brain is not an exemption! That which counters fact is due to our own prejudices and wishful thinking as if it were an act of desperation to save oneself from the inexpressible pain of nihilism.

[Belinda]

Dubious, as has been observed, man is the measure of it.