Can you tell lie to yourself?

For all things philosophical.

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Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:59 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:25 am
I have NOT argued for "age" here.
You didn't need to. The way you write marked it clearly. There were only those two possibilities.
lol

ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of BELIEF in action, and being absolutely, completely WRONG.

The power of BELIEF overrides absolutely ANY thing at all to the BELIEVER.

Even that most OBVIOUS Truth to EVERY one "else", can NOT be SEEN nor HEARD by the BELIEVER.

I could not have expected I was going to provide a better example of some one lying to them "self" than what has just been SHOWN here.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:56 am

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:41 pm
ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of BELIEF in action, and being absolutely, completely WRONG.
Nah. Don't think so. It's one or the other.

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:09 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:56 am
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:41 pm
ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of BELIEF in action, and being absolutely, completely WRONG.
Nah. Don't think so. It's one or the other.
So, your previous assumption, which was supposedly based on a "compelling conclusion", was mid teens, around 17 or 18, but now your assumption is a teen or a fixated adult. So, after all of this back and forth chatter you are back to the beginning and still no closer to knowing, and thus no wiser at all.

Now, if you want to make the claim that 'I' am either a teen or a fixated adult and that they are the only two possibilities, then what do you believe that, if I am an adult, I am "fixated" on exactly?

Also, considering that this thread topic is about whether you can tell lies to "yourself" or not, which I have already PROVEN that you can do, I PROVED this by SHOWING how 'you', "immanuel can" have been lying to "yourself", which you have flat out refused to LOOK AT and discuss and instead you have been absolutely 'fixated' on the age of "age" here. You do this to 'try to' deflect away from the main issue, that is; You lying to "yourself".

So, the actual FACT is it is 'you', "immanuel can", who is actually the adult human being who is FIXATED here.

Unless of course you can prove this wrong by showing what it is that I am supposedly FIXATED on ALSO.

Now, if you can not prove that I am FIXATED on some thing, then you are left believing that I am either an adult or teen/child, and so again none the wiser STILL.

You are also none the wiser to the FACT that you have been completely MISSING THE MARK here that by your very deceptive behavior here, you have been literally lying to "yourself".

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:22 am

Age wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:09 am
So, your previous assumption...
Cannot be bothered with this. Sorry.

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:16 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:22 am
Age wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:09 am
So, your previous assumption...
Cannot be bothered with this. Sorry.
You can not be bothered with "this" anymore, because you have contradicted 'yourself" to much, you can not prove what 'you' believe is true, your own fixation is on its last legs, you can not even say what my supposed fixation is, and/or because you have lied to much to "yourself" that you can not even keep up with "this" any more.

I have SHOWN and PROVEN every thing I have said and claimed.

You have yet to SHOW or PROVE just one thing that you have said or claimed.

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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by gaffo » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:04 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:13 am
What is that you think or believe I will in a few years know better?
You'll understand that "adult" is not some separate kind of humanity that can be blamed from the viewpoint of a child, and that children are not really sufficiently equipped to understand the causes and nature of what they're criticizing. By that time, you'll have discovered that your humanity is not higher than theirs, and that the added years do not suddenly reduce wisdom. Rather, you'll likely realize that the problem you're criticizing is more complicated than you knew, and that you are yourself part of that problem. But that perspective takes maturity to develop. It doesn't come without experience.
I think as a general rule with age comes wisdom, but there are always outliers.

I've known both old fools, and wise children (youngens born with "old souls")

I suspect since there are outliers, Wisdom (or more aptly the capability of introspection/selfless thoughtfulness) as an inborn component akin to intelligence.

2-cents.

thanks for reply concerning my drunk buddy prior Sir.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:29 am

gaffo wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:43 pm
thanks for reply concerning my drunk buddy prior Sir.
Not a problem. There's little I can do, of course, but I share your concern for him.

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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by duszek » Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:56 pm

Is telling a lie to oneself the same as avoiding admitting some obvious and unpleasant truth ?

That your boyfriend is a jerk, for instance.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:07 pm

duszek wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:56 pm
Is telling a lie to oneself the same as avoiding admitting some obvious and unpleasant truth ?

That your boyfriend is a jerk, for instance.
Good question.

The interesting thing about self-deception is that you are both the perp and the victim. And that looks very odd.

If you secretly know that what you're saying isn't true, then you aren't deceived, really. But if you actually deeply believe what you're saying, then you aren't perpetrating a lie, just telling the truth as you know it.

So one way, you're not really a victim, and in the other, you aren't a perp. So in what sense are you self-deceived? :shock:

Age
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Age » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:35 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:07 pm
duszek wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:56 pm
Is telling a lie to oneself the same as avoiding admitting some obvious and unpleasant truth ?

That your boyfriend is a jerk, for instance.
Good question.

The interesting thing about self-deception is that you are both the perp and the victim. And that looks very odd.

If you secretly know that what you're saying isn't true, then you aren't deceived, really.
You are just really being a liar and a perpetrator.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:07 pm
But if you actually deeply believe what you're saying, then you aren't perpetrating a lie, just telling the truth as you know it.
Thee Truth IS, if you actually deeply believe what you are saying, then you are not telling the truth as you know it, you are telling the truth as YOU THINK you know it.

Two very big differences, and a very big distinction, which reveals the actual Truth of things, from just what is a perceived truth, which is, in fact, NOT true.

If you actually deeply believe what you are saying, but you do not have any actual facts, evidence, and proof for this belief and saying, then you are in a sense actually perpetrating a lie, and worse still perpetrating that lie on your own "self". You, therefore, are telling a lie to "yourself"

If you now assume or believe that you are not telling a lie to "yourself", then you are actually perpetrating another lie and to "yourself", again.

Lies and deception are very strongly held up within assuming and believing.

'you', "immanuel can", are just once again 'trying to' fool and trick "yourself", through lies and deceptions, that 'you' are not a perpetrator, nor a victim.

This is the actual game that perpetrators and victims play with "themselves". They lie and deceive and be deceived, and lie, to "themselves".
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:07 pm
So one way, you're not really a victim, and in the other, you aren't a perp. So in what sense are you self-deceived? :shock:
When you are being Truly Honest, then that is when you will work it out, which is very easy by the way.

NOT knowing 'thy Self' is the sense in which 'you' ARE self-deceived.

gaffo
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by gaffo » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:07 pm
duszek wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:56 pm
Is telling a lie to oneself the same as avoiding admitting some obvious and unpleasant truth ?

That your boyfriend is a jerk, for instance.
Good question.

The interesting thing about self-deception is that you are both the perp and the victim. And that looks very odd.

If you secretly know that what you're saying isn't true, then you aren't deceived, really. But if you actually deeply believe what you're saying, then you aren't perpetrating a lie, just telling the truth as you know it.

So one way, you're not really a victim, and in the other, you aren't a perp. So in what sense are you self-deceived? :shock:
Well said and concur. 99=percent of us know we are bullshitting ourselves when he self deceive.

i do think that maybe there is that 1-percent with "personality disorder" (mild form of mulitiple personality) - who's one "Sefl awareness/image" is so weak, that they may not actually "know" they are bullshiting (lying) to themselves.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:10 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 am
Well said and concur. 99=percent of us know we are bullshitting ourselves when he self deceive.
That's the odd thing, isn't it?

In such cases, on some level, we know we're lying...so we're not really victims. But we are clinging to a deception, at another level. And how that works is just odd.

gaffo
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by gaffo » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:21 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:10 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 am
Well said and concur. 99=percent of us know we are bullshitting ourselves when he self deceive.
That's the odd thing, isn't it?

In such cases, on some level, we know we're lying...so we're not really victims. But we are clinging to a deception, at another level. And how that works is just odd.
man is a complex animal and ego seems the rule.

when i lie to myself it is out of ego (for me it is fear of being shamed, but when its a self lie i just shame myself (the act of self lie is the added shame to the original shame) instead of letting others shame me - so its folly). i strive to not self lie and allow me to be ashamed instead of fool myself - i know myself too well to play such games anymore anyhow).

but i know the games are still played by some others.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:31 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:21 am
when i lie to myself it is out of ego (for me it is fear of being shamed, but when its a self lie i just shame myself (the act of self lie is the added shame to the original shame) instead of letting others shame me - so its folly). i strive to not self lie and allow me to be ashamed instead of fool myself - i know myself too well to play such games anymore anyhow).

but i know the games are still played by some others.
For me, the paradigm case is like the abused woman who tells all her friends that her boyfriend won't hit her again. She believes it enough to stay with him, but when he comes home and slams the door, she cringes...which shows she also knows he will hit her.

That's a tough one to explain.

Nick_A
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Re: Can you tell lie to yourself?

Post by Nick_A » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:40 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:32 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:07 pm
duszek wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:56 pm
Is telling a lie to oneself the same as avoiding admitting some obvious and unpleasant truth ?

That your boyfriend is a jerk, for instance.
Good question.

The interesting thing about self-deception is that you are both the perp and the victim. And that looks very odd.

If you secretly know that what you're saying isn't true, then you aren't deceived, really. But if you actually deeply believe what you're saying, then you aren't perpetrating a lie, just telling the truth as you know it.

So one way, you're not really a victim, and in the other, you aren't a perp. So in what sense are you self-deceived? :shock:
Well said and concur. 99=percent of us know we are bullshitting ourselves when he self deceive.

i do think that maybe there is that 1-percent with "personality disorder" (mild form of mulitiple personality) - who's one "Sefl awareness/image" is so weak, that they may not actually "know" they are bullshiting (lying) to themselves.
If some people begin to experience that they live in self deception but are attracted to experience the truths of themselves to satisfy their need for meaning, what would you say is the first step necessary to sacrifice self deception in order to "know thyself?"

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