Is a Perfect Circle Real?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:52 am

Here is an explanation why 'Perfect Circle' cannot and is impossible to exist as real.

1. What is empirically real is confined to sensibility + understanding.
2. A perfect circle is noumenon [from Reason] that is beyond empirical "sensibility + understanding".
3. Therefore a perfect-circle is impossible to be real.

The realm of Sensibility + Understanding = real empirical things.
This how empirical things are derived from experiences.
Humans perceived things of all shapes, e.g. roundish ones.
From such observations and using understanding, the empirical concept of circle is abstracted with its various defined qualities.
In this case we can verify and know empirical circles existing as real.

However we have a faculty of Reason which can think of PERFECT CIRCLES and attributed it with a definition and qualities.
But the point while a Perfect circle as extrapolated from empirical circles, they are impossible to exists as real. There can NEVER be any absolute PERFECT Circles in the empirical world of sensibility + understanding.

Show me where can one find a real perfect_circle-in-itself?
The argument is related to Plato's ideas, forms and universals as real things that are independent of humans.
Thus a PERFECT circle can be thought of but cannot be really real in the empirical world.
The Perfect Circle is the noumenal-circle which a limit to what is a circle.
This is the principle of the Noumenon that is applicable a limit to all sensible and empirical things.

Here is the impossibility of a perfect circle in reality;
  • Mathematical Perfection
    Mathematically speaking, a circle is the set of points in a plane that are equidistant from a given point. For a circle to be perfect, you'd need all those points in the circle's circumference to match up exactly.
    And for all those points to match up exactly you'd need this precision to remain constant no matter how closely you looked: the particles, the cells, the atoms... And are these "points" stationary or are they in motion?
    The maddening search for perfection simply breaks down.

    Only in the abstract world of pure mathematics can we find our perfect circle -- a world of points and infinitely-thin lines with no room for particle inconsistencies or spherical oblateness.
    https://www.stufftoblowyourmind.com/blo ... iverse.htm
Forms From Beyond
The situation brings to mind Plato's Theory of Forms. We live in the material realm, it states, but beyond our plane exists an immaterial realm of ideal forms. You can think of these ideal forms as the absolute perfection of a given thing, a truth that cannot be manifested in our universe. All we can do is echo it.

In our world there is no true beauty, but we have an innate understanding and longing for the true form of beauty as it exists beyond the limits of our reality. There's no true justice here, but we have a sense of it because the unreachable ideal exists in the realm of forms.

The Theory of Forms applies to chairs, apples, fears, sex, art -- everything we can comprehend and long for, really. For each there is a godlike ideal beyond our worldly grasp, residing in a pantheon of other awesome and terrible forms.

The circle is but one of them, its perfection impossible in our imperfect world.

https://www.stufftoblowyourmind.com/blo ... iverse.htm
My Point;
A Perfect Circle is impossible to exists as real, i.e. within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

Any counter to the above?

Skepdick
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Skepdick » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:26 am

Define 'exists' and 'real'.

In the language of Mathematics a circle can be defined as x^2 + y^2 = 1.

When formulated in that way your question reduces to: Are the real numbers real?
And you can go even further and ask: Are the integers real? Is mathematics discovered or invented?

There are many schools of thoughts on this. Platonists, anti-platonists, realists, nominalists ,intuitionists, formalists.

Their disagreements (like all philosophy) are masturbatory. In the end - they tend to agree on the correctness of mathematical proofs, as well as the pragmatic utility of maths irrespective of their philosophies.

Just because I claim that numbers don't exist isn't going to stop me from doing my taxes using arithmetic.

surreptitious57
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:57 am

Perfect circles do not exist in reality but conceptually the definition holds very well which is why it is useful
A two dimensional geometrical shape where all points on the circumference are equidistant from the centre

In reality any circle will be a series of finite straight lines which form the circumference
When these lines appear to our eyes as just one circular line then that is called a circle
But if our eyes could see that circle at the quantum level it would not be circular at all
And so circles that actually exist only appear perfect from our very limited perspective

surreptitious57
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:10 am

o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

To my eyes these all appear to be perfect circles but if I were to examine them at the quantum level they would have no uniformity at all
I also would not be able to see any of them in their entirety like they are here as that is many orders of magnitude above the atomic scale

surreptitious57
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:20 am

The only perfect thing about a circle is its actual definition
But this does not translate to reality and so any physical circle is imperfect as a consequence
This is also true for all standard two dimensional geometrical shapes with absolute symmetry
Even the humble one dimensional straight line is not absolutely straight it just appears to be

jayjacobus
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by jayjacobus » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:23 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:52 am

My Point;
A Perfect Circle is impossible to exists as real, i.e. within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

Any counter to the above?
Good point and a point isn't real either, is it? If an atom is real, then a point is only an abstraction.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:39 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:10 am
Perfect circles do not exist in reality but conceptually the definition holds very well which is why it is useful
A two dimensional geometrical shape where all points on the circumference are equidistant from the centre.

In reality any circle will be a series of finite straight lines which form the circumference
When these lines appear to our eyes as just one circular line then that is called a circle
But if our eyes could see that circle at the quantum level it would not be circular at all
And so circles that actually exist only appear perfect from our very limited perspective


o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

To my eyes these all appear to be perfect circles but if I were to examine them at the quantum level they would have no uniformity at all
I also would not be able to see any of them in their entirety like they are here as that is many orders of magnitude above the atomic scale
Agree and that is super great point.

So a Perfect Circle is impossible to be real.
'Real' as defined to the best of our ability and meet the highest philosophical rigor.

The point is there are empirical circles that are real which are dependent on human observations, measurements, testing and philosophical justifications.

However the issue is there are those [e.g. Philosophical Realists] who insist there are real circles-in-themselves that are independent of the human conditions.
These circles-in-themselves is a perfect circle that can be defined mathematically.
But as justified above a perfect circle as circle-in-itself can exist as real or impossible to exist as real.

A circle is an empirical thing.
As such in principle, all empirical things can be thought as empirical_things-in-themselves.
Empirical_things-in-themselves can be thought but cannot exist as real empirically, i.e. impossible to exist as real.

The above is explored within Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and the thing-in-itself.
In the CPR, the empirical_thing-in-themselves are the noumena [versus phenomena].
These empirical_things-in-themselves are classed a the noumenon which acts a limiting concept to limit the extension of the empirical things into other non-sensible and non-real ideas.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:45 am

jayjacobus wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:23 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:52 am

My Point;
A Perfect Circle is impossible to exists as real, i.e. within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

Any counter to the above?
Good point and a point isn't real either, is it? If an atom is real, then a point is only an abstraction.
Agree.
It is only an abstraction done by humans.

The contention is there are people who insist there is a real point-in-itself which independent of the human conditions.

Skepdick
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Skepdick » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:40 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:45 am
Agree.
It is only an abstraction done by humans.
Everything people THINK is "only an abstraction done by humans". All concepts and language used to speak about concepts are abstract and self-referential.
Even the language we use to pretend with - words like 'real', 'exists' and 'mind-independent'. They are abstract concepts.

To SAY that something is 'mind-independent' is a performative contradiction. Are you only catching on now?

This is the problem of ontology. The question "What is the fundamental nature of reality?". Nobody fucking knows.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:45 am
The contention is there are people who insist there is a real point-in-itself which independent of the human conditions.
If you insist on rescuing your religion from the "law" of non-contradiction, you can do so trivially by rejecting gravity.

If gravity exists, then points exist too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_particle

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:08 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:52 am

My Point;
A Perfect Circle is impossible to exists as real, i.e. within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

Any counter to the above?
Never has a circle been seen.

So no, a circle is not real, and it doesn't matter whether the circle is perfect or not, makes no difference, a circle is not real within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:34 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:52 am
Here is an explanation why 'Perfect Circle' cannot and is impossible to exist as real.

1. What is empirically real is confined to sensibility + understanding.
2. A perfect circle is noumenon [from Reason] that is beyond empirical "sensibility + understanding".
3. Therefore a perfect-circle is impossible to be real.

The realm of Sensibility + Understanding = real empirical things.
This how empirical things are derived from experiences.
Humans perceived things of all shapes, e.g. roundish ones.
From such observations and using understanding, the empirical concept of circle is abstracted with its various defined qualities.
In this case we can verify and know empirical circles existing as real.

However we have a faculty of Reason which can think of PERFECT CIRCLES and attributed it with a definition and qualities.
But the point while a Perfect circle as extrapolated from empirical circles, they are impossible to exists as real. There can NEVER be any absolute PERFECT Circles in the empirical world of sensibility + understanding.

Show me where can one find a real perfect_circle-in-itself?
The argument is related to Plato's ideas, forms and universals as real things that are independent of humans.
Thus a PERFECT circle can be thought of but cannot be really real in the empirical world.
The Perfect Circle is the noumenal-circle which a limit to what is a circle.
This is the principle of the Noumenon that is applicable a limit to all sensible and empirical things.

Here is the impossibility of a perfect circle in reality;
  • Mathematical Perfection
    Mathematically speaking, a circle is the set of points in a plane that are equidistant from a given point. For a circle to be perfect, you'd need all those points in the circle's circumference to match up exactly.
    And for all those points to match up exactly you'd need this precision to remain constant no matter how closely you looked: the particles, the cells, the atoms... And are these "points" stationary or are they in motion?
    The maddening search for perfection simply breaks down.

    Only in the abstract world of pure mathematics can we find our perfect circle -- a world of points and infinitely-thin lines with no room for particle inconsistencies or spherical oblateness.
    https://www.stufftoblowyourmind.com/blo ... iverse.htm
Forms From Beyond
The situation brings to mind Plato's Theory of Forms. We live in the material realm, it states, but beyond our plane exists an immaterial realm of ideal forms. You can think of these ideal forms as the absolute perfection of a given thing, a truth that cannot be manifested in our universe. All we can do is echo it.

In our world there is no true beauty, but we have an innate understanding and longing for the true form of beauty as it exists beyond the limits of our reality. There's no true justice here, but we have a sense of it because the unreachable ideal exists in the realm of forms.

The Theory of Forms applies to chairs, apples, fears, sex, art -- everything we can comprehend and long for, really. For each there is a godlike ideal beyond our worldly grasp, residing in a pantheon of other awesome and terrible forms.

The circle is but one of them, its perfection impossible in our imperfect world.

https://www.stufftoblowyourmind.com/blo ... iverse.htm
My Point;
A Perfect Circle is impossible to exists as real, i.e. within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

Any counter to the above?
1. Because in defining what is real you are left using a perfect looping to define not just what is real but your position as well.


2. Can you define real without being subject to time within the answer? If I see a fly in a box, the fly is appearing to move randomly within the box, as it flies to one point then another, then another when compared to another movements. However if I view the flies movement all at one moment, from a larger time zone where the summation of the flies movements in the box is merely just a point, then the movements form the say context of the box it exists in. The question of a perfect form is a question of time.

3. To negate "perfect", through the word "imperfect", requires to define perfect...but what you provide is an indefinite word which can effectively mean anything and is a linchpin point justified by an infinite continuum of definitions and circularity...thus necessitating your position to prove the premise you are nullifying...but you dont prove it...thus cannot disprove it.

4. Your argument is not correct because it is not even wrong.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:36 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:08 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:52 am

My Point;
A Perfect Circle is impossible to exists as real, i.e. within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

Any counter to the above?
Never has a circle been seen.

So no, a circle is not real, and it doesn't matter whether the circle is perfect or not, makes no difference, a circle is not real within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

.
Sight has never been seen except through a circularity.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:51 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:45 am
jayjacobus wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:23 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:52 am

My Point;
A Perfect Circle is impossible to exists as real, i.e. within the field of sensibility + understandng + rationality.

Any counter to the above?
Good point and a point isn't real either, is it? If an atom is real, then a point is only an abstraction.
Agree.
It is only an abstraction done by humans.

The contention is there are people who insist there is a real point-in-itself which independent of the human conditions.
This ^^^^^ is "only an abstraction done by humans".

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:52 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:20 am
The only perfect thing about a circle is its actual definition
But this does not translate to reality and so any physical circle is imperfect as a consequence
This is also true for all standard two dimensional geometrical shapes with absolute symmetry
Even the humble one dimensional straight line is not absolutely straight it just appears to be
Reality is definition.

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Sculptor
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Re: Is a Perfect Circle Real?

Post by Sculptor » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:02 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:52 am
Here is an explanation why 'Perfect Circle' cannot and is impossible to exist as real.
No counter, just a simplification.
A circle is 2D. Real things are 3D.

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