DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

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Age
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Age » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:48 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 am
Age wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:02 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:06 am

I believe I have presented my full argument logically somewhere in sequential order in a narrative form.
I did not intent to do so above, thus mixed up.

Your point re my 'first premise' and 'ultimate premise' as if they must be specific is too confusing.
What is critical the whatever argument I presented the first premise must follow through to the whatever conclusion.

Here is a rough narrative of my argument 'why god is an impossibility to be real' within the overriding premise, of striving perpetual peace.
  • 1. Humans exist - self evident
    2. DNA wise ALL humans has the potential of an existential crisis [proof TBA]
    3. DNA wise ALL humans the the potential to be good (3a) and evil (3b).
    ...in our present state, the potential for evil is greater than that of good.
    4. From 2, the existential crisis drive humans to religions [theistic and non theistic] [Proof TBA]
    5. The scriptures of theistic religion contain loads of evil and violent elements [Proof TBA]
    6. These evil and violent elements trigger evil tendency (3b) of some believers to commit evil and violent act that threaten perpetual peace.
    7. The good in humans (3a) strive for perpetual peace.
    8. To attain perpetual peace, we need to eliminate one of its threat, i.e. theistic religions [5].
    9. The central core of theistic religion is a belief in God as real.
    10. If God is an impossibility, it cannot be real thus no grounds for (5).
    11. God is an impossibility to be real [Proof provided].
    12. God is defanged, thus facilitating 8 i.e. perpetual peace
The basis of perpetual peace is very complex and the element of theism as a threat is merely one of perhaps hundreds or thousand+, but theism is a very significant factor with a weightage of say, 40%.

The above is merely a rough narrative and I understand each point itself is an argument which I need to prove and justify which can be complex in themselves.

Assuming I have the proofs for all the points 1-12, where did I go wrong in the above logical narrative from 1 to 12.
From 2
I stated, assuming if I have proofs for all the points, is there anything wrong with the logical narrative in terms of structure, not specific contents.

Note re point 2, I qualified proofs are to be advised or provided.
I don't intend to go into the details because of your ignorance [gathered from what you have posted] of the relevant elements there would be too many holes for you to fill.

You can take them as leads to further knowledge.
I suggest you dig deep into what is the existential crisis or existential dilemma arising from a cognitive dissonance. You will need to be very familiar with neuroscience, neuro-psychology, evolutionary psychology and related matters.
What is good and evil will also be complex.
Besides you need to understand the core principles of all the mainstream theistic religion. It will take years for one to grasp the core of the Quran.
There are many other aspects of knowledge you need to update.
As I said, 'From 2', EVERY thing you say is illogical.

If you BELIEVE you have some "cure" or "some thing", which will make human existence better, then go ahead and do it. I hope you achieve your goals. Unfortunately though the dislike and hatred that you have for some may well interfere with your goal here. But anyway best of luck.

jayjacobus
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by jayjacobus » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:18 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:28 am
The closest we can come to this question meaning anything is the inevitable conclusion that - it would have been much better had dontaskme never been born.
That's your claim but what's the foundation for your claim? If you have no foundation, no reason, for making that claim it is a naked claim. If you do have a reason, is it the most relevant reason or are there other reasons (for him being alive) that are more relevant to other people?

A candidate for political office can say "lying Ted" but what's the reason for saying that and is the speaker saying something that is the always true, occasionally true, rarely true or mostly true. On balance, is "lying Ted" a fair characterization or a character assassination?

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Lacewing
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Lacewing » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:30 pm

DAM,

You said no thing is being born...AT THE SAME TIME as you are talking about someone being born.
You said you conceive yourself...AT THE SAME TIME as you are saying that the choice of life is made by others.
You said the illusion is very often desired...AT THE SAME TIME as you are saying that life is all bullshit.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:23 am
As far as I am aware, I don't take extreme positions, what ever that means, I have no idea, I simple talk in a nondual context
Interesting.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:23 am
you appear to want to challenge what I am saying, thinking the irrefutable truth I talk about can be refuted, and that's what confuses me, to be honest.
So as long as you think something is irrefutable truth in whatever moment you happen to be in, then it is irrefutable truth.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:23 am
I'm simply sharing the nondual reality that is the only irrefutable truth.
That is not what you appear to be doing. But apparently you don't/cannot see otherwise, and challenging it makes your brain go into a fog.
Last edited by Lacewing on Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Lacewing » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:31 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:28 am
The closest we can come to this question meaning anything is the inevitable conclusion that - it would have been much better had dontaskme never been born.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Nick_A » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:52 pm

VA
10. If God is an impossibility, it cannot be real thus no grounds for (5).
11. God is an impossibility to be real
Your dedication to atheism will not allow you to appreciate the depth of Simone's remark.

“It is only the impossible that is possible for God. He has given over the possible to the mechanics of matter and the autonomy of his creatures.” ~ Simone Weil

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:19 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:30 pm
DAM,

You said no thing is being born...AT THE SAME TIME as you are talking about someone being born.
You said you conceive yourself...AT THE SAME TIME as you are saying that the choice of life is made by others.
You said the illusion is very often desired...AT THE SAME TIME as you are saying that life is all bullshit.
What I say and how you interpret what I say I have no control over.
I know what I'm talking about even if you don't. I don't have to keep repeating what I mean by what I say to you or anyone, especially you. If it's all just nonsense to you, then I'll get that, and it will not bother me one iota.
Lacewing wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:30 pm
So as long as you think something is irrefutable truth in whatever moment you happen to be in, then it is irrefutable truth.
That's right.
Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:23 am
I'm simply sharing the nondual reality that is the only irrefutable truth.
Lacewing wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:30 pm
That is not what you appear to be doing. But apparently you don't/cannot see otherwise, and challenging it makes your brain go into a fog.
Yes it is what I am doing, even though according to your personal calculations and report it isn't... but I care not for what you think, because it's not what I think, and that's all that matters to me.

Just have a great big laugh over my posts, with those who laugh too, I hope you enjoy the entertainment, hope it makes your day and makes coming to the forum so valuable and worthwhile for you.



.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:21 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:52 pm
VA
10. If God is an impossibility, it cannot be real thus no grounds for (5).
11. God is an impossibility to be real
Your dedication to atheism will not allow you to appreciate the depth of Simone's remark.

“It is only the impossible that is possible for God. He has given over the possible to the mechanics of matter and the autonomy of his creatures.” ~ Simone Weil

That's very meaningful. Except where is meaning outside of human conceptual language? aka knowledge!

Can you know that?

Also, are you not making Simone Weil into some kind of goddess, or some spiritual guru or something?

Do you not understand the mechanics of the believing brain? and how children will just blindly believe the stories you tell them?

Adults, are like children too. The child within hasn't gone anywhere.

.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Lacewing » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:35 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:19 pm
Just have a great big laugh over my posts, with those who laugh too, I hope you enjoy the entertainment
Well, I actually wish there was more to it, in interactions with you (which is why I've tried, as nondual concepts are not foreign to me)... but whatever specific trip you're on doesn't seem nearly as clear and steady as you present it to be, and you don't seem to think there is anything new for you to see. So, yes, at least the humor of all of it comes with its own insights.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:02 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:35 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:19 pm
Just have a great big laugh over my posts, with those who laugh too, I hope you enjoy the entertainment
Well, I actually wish there was more to it, in interactions with you (which is why I've tried, as nondual concepts are not foreign to me)... but whatever specific trip you're on doesn't seem nearly as clear and steady as you present it to be, and you don't seem to think there is anything new for you to see. So, yes, at least the humor of all of it comes with its own insights.
We're on all a trip, enjoy yours, byeee.

I like to discuss nonduality it's my hobby. So frigging what if it's presented unclear and unsteady.

Also, I see each day totally unique and new, so fuck you.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Lacewing » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:07 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:02 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:35 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:19 pm
Just have a great big laugh over my posts, with those who laugh too, I hope you enjoy the entertainment
Well, I actually wish there was more to it, in interactions with you (which is why I've tried, as nondual concepts are not foreign to me)... but whatever specific trip you're on doesn't seem nearly as clear and steady as you present it to be, and you don't seem to think there is anything new for you to see. So, yes, at least the humor of all of it comes with its own insights.
We're on all a trip, enjoy yours, byeee.

I like to discuss nonduality it's my hobby. So frigging what if it's presented unclear and unsteady.

Also, I see each day totally unique and new, so fuck you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

See, now that's funny and revealing.

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Sculptor
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Sculptor » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:07 pm

jayjacobus wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:18 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:28 am
The closest we can come to this question meaning anything is the inevitable conclusion that - it would have been much better had dontaskme never been born.
That's your claim but what's the foundation for your claim? If you have no foundation, no reason, for making that claim it is a naked claim. If you do have a reason, is it the most relevant reason or are there other reasons (for him being alive) that are more relevant to other people?
My experience of dontaskme is the foundation of the claim.
Experience is the foundation stone of all claims ultimately.

A candidate for political office can say "lying Ted" but what's the reason for saying that and is the speaker saying something that is the always true, occasionally true, rarely true or mostly true. On balance, is "lying Ted" a fair characterization or a character assassination?
Depends on your experience of Ted, obviously.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by jayjacobus » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:41 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:07 pm
jayjacobus wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:18 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:28 am
The closest we can come to this question meaning anything is the inevitable conclusion that - it would have been much better had dontaskme never been born.
That's your claim but what's the foundation for your claim? If you have no foundation, no reason, for making that claim it is a naked claim. If you do have a reason, is it the most relevant reason or are there other reasons (for him being alive) that are more relevant to other people?
My experience of dontaskme is the foundation of the claim.
Experience is the foundation stone of all claims ultimately.

A candidate for political office can say "lying Ted" but what's the reason for saying that and is the speaker saying something that is the always true, occasionally true, rarely true or mostly true. On balance, is "lying Ted" a fair characterization or a character assassination?
Depends on your experience of Ted, obviously.
It is the intent of the speaker and the unsubstantiated claim is intended to win a debate without addressing the issues. It
is simply a tactic to avoid the issues.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Nick_A » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:26 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:21 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:52 pm
VA
10. If God is an impossibility, it cannot be real thus no grounds for (5).
11. God is an impossibility to be real
Your dedication to atheism will not allow you to appreciate the depth of Simone's remark.

“It is only the impossible that is possible for God. He has given over the possible to the mechanics of matter and the autonomy of his creatures.” ~ Simone Weil
That's very meaningful. Except where is meaning outside of human conceptual language? aka knowledge!

Can you know that?
Yes, a person is capable of having apriori experiences revealing universal knowlege
Also, are you not making Simone Weil into some kind of goddess, or some spiritual guru or something?
No, Simone was a seeker of truth and not something we as creatures of reaction can understand. They appear weird to us. I have the greatest admiration for her striving and its results. For us, a seeker of truth is person who wants to judge rather than experience
Do you not understand the mechanics of the believing brain? and how children will just blindly believe the stories you tell them?

Adults, are like children too. The child within hasn't gone anywhere.
Yes, we blindly believe. That explains the success of collectivism. Rooted in collectives we no longer know what an individual is. I posted this from a Simone Weil article on my Individualism vs collectivism thread
Alluding to the allegory of the cave in Plato's Republic, where reality is seen second-hand as shadows on the wall rather than directly in the light of reality, Weil points to the compelling truth that everything people do or believe is based on a second-hand source: society. As long as individuals substitute society's view of reality for their own discoveries of reality -- so that the relationship to self, others, nature, and the universe is direct, immediate, intuitive, and accountable -- the individual will remain oppressed.

Conscience is deceived by the social. Our supplementary energy (imagination) is to a great extent taken up with the social. It has to be detached from it. That is the most difficult of detachments.

The most difficult of detachments , yet it can begin, not with action but with reflection.

Meditation on the social mechanism is in this respect a purification of the first importance. To contemplate the social is as good a way of detachment as to retire from the world. That is why I have not been wrong to rub shoulders with politics or society.
Instead of blindly revolting against suffering in the world and arguing opinions, Simone was compelled to experience it for what it is with conscious attention and contribute to world awakening to the human condition as she did. I believe that is why Albert Camus called her the only great mind of the times. Who else could have such dedication in the modern world? Her life was either more inhuman than mine or more human. I haven't figured it out yet but my guess is that I'll come out on the short end.. The Great Beast frowns on the experience of reality with conscious attention and has created a large following.

Simone suggests the value of experiencing suffering with conscious attention. You seem to value non experience through the belief that it is all imaginary. I'll stick with Simone on this one.

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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Sculptor » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:26 pm

jayjacobus wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:41 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:07 pm
jayjacobus wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:18 pm


That's your claim but what's the foundation for your claim? If you have no foundation, no reason, for making that claim it is a naked claim. If you do have a reason, is it the most relevant reason or are there other reasons (for him being alive) that are more relevant to other people?
My experience of dontaskme is the foundation of the claim.
Experience is the foundation stone of all claims ultimately.

A candidate for political office can say "lying Ted" but what's the reason for saying that and is the speaker saying something that is the always true, occasionally true, rarely true or mostly true. On balance, is "lying Ted" a fair characterization or a character assassination?
Depends on your experience of Ted, obviously.
It is the intent of the speaker and the unsubstantiated claim is intended to win a debate without addressing the issues. It
is simply a tactic to avoid the issues.
There is no issue in this thread, is the point.
A null case can not contain a value. Never being born is neither good, bad, better or worse.

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Sculptor
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Re: DAM asked: "Is being born worth it - or is it better to have never been born?"

Post by Sculptor » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:27 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:07 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:02 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:35 pm

Well, I actually wish there was more to it, in interactions with you (which is why I've tried, as nondual concepts are not foreign to me)... but whatever specific trip you're on doesn't seem nearly as clear and steady as you present it to be, and you don't seem to think there is anything new for you to see. So, yes, at least the humor of all of it comes with its own insights.
We're on all a trip, enjoy yours, byeee.

I like to discuss nonduality it's my hobby. So frigging what if it's presented unclear and unsteady.

Also, I see each day totally unique and new, so fuck you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

See, now that's funny and revealing.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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