If free will is assumed, is the will free?

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Eodnhoj7
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If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:16 pm

Might as well get to the point of the debate on free will.... I am sick of the sophistry.

David Smudge
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Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by David Smudge » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:33 pm

We're you free to ask that question? If not, who's asking?

Impenitent
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Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by Impenitent » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:38 pm

if there is no free will there is no moral culpability ...

-Imp

barbarianhorde
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Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by barbarianhorde » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:59 am

Impenitent wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:38 pm
if there is no free will there is no moral culpability ...

-Imp
This is an old error.
Like: since there is gravity, you shouldn't try to stand up straight.

Moral culpability exists precisely because actions determine outcomes.
Whether or not actions are metaphysically seen as "free willed" has absolutely no diminishing bearing on our power of weighing our actions.

mickthinks
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Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by mickthinks » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:23 pm

Is my will free of all constraints?
No, I hope not. I want a will that follows my needs, including my physical, emotional and spritual needs.

Are my choices of action free of outside interference?
Yes, in so far as all attempts to induce me to act against my will are unsuccessful.


Standard disclaimer: This is rough and ready and I reserve the right to tweek it in the light of any learning that may come from further discussion.

surreptitious57
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Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:26 pm

Free will does exist and so does determinism and there is no contradiction because neither of them are absolute only partial
The will of the mind to think is limited by imagination while the will of the mind to do is limited by both morality and physics
That is to say that the mind can not freely do something it does not want to or equally something that is not actually possible

Impenitent
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Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by Impenitent » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:33 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:59 am
Impenitent wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:38 pm
if there is no free will there is no moral culpability ...

-Imp
This is an old error.
Like: since there is gravity, you shouldn't try to stand up straight.

Moral culpability exists precisely because actions determine outcomes.
Whether or not actions are metaphysically seen as "free willed" has absolutely no diminishing bearing on our power of weighing our actions.
it is determined that you weigh actions? by which standard?

didn't choose that either?

-Imp

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Eodnhoj7
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:58 pm

David Smudge wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:33 pm
We're you free to ask that question? If not, who's asking?
I assuming the the variable of the question (free will), does that mean free will exists if I assume it?

barbarianhorde
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:46 pm

Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by barbarianhorde » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:58 am

Impenitent wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:33 pm
barbarianhorde wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:59 am
Impenitent wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:38 pm
if there is no free will there is no moral culpability ...

-Imp
This is an old error.
Like: since there is gravity, you shouldn't try to stand up straight.

Moral culpability exists precisely because actions determine outcomes.
Whether or not actions are metaphysically seen as "free willed" has absolutely no diminishing bearing on our power of weighing our actions.
it is determined that you weigh actions? by which standard?

didn't choose that either?

-Imp
Moral culpability never was dependent on the metaphysical and utterly nonsensical because unfalsifiable question of free will.
Morality is a value judgment, not a question of 19th century pseudo physics.

In other words, the moral culpability of a criminal is actually a function of the mental health of the judge.


If you believe otherwise, you get this scenario:

sanity is defined as having a set of values (response patterns)
person A does something way out of has value set like kill a thousand civilians
person A says he thinks this was a righteous and moral act
person A is on that ground diagnosed as "insane"
on the grounds of insanity it is decided that person A can not be condemned for what he did
person A goes free
person A is thereby proven right that what he did was a moral, or at least not an immoral act.

See the question of morality must apply to acts and consequences, which can be discerned, and not to the interior world of persons, which cannot be discerned.

barbarianhorde
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:46 pm

Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by barbarianhorde » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:37 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:58 pm
David Smudge wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:33 pm
We're you free to ask that question? If not, who's asking?
I assuming the the variable of the question (free will), does that mean free will exists if I assume it?
Thats a beautiful solution.

"My first act of free will shall be to believe in free will" - William James

Impenitent
Posts: 2362
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: If free will is assumed, is the will free?

Post by Impenitent » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:58 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:58 am
Impenitent wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:33 pm
barbarianhorde wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:59 am


This is an old error.
Like: since there is gravity, you shouldn't try to stand up straight.

Moral culpability exists precisely because actions determine outcomes.
Whether or not actions are metaphysically seen as "free willed" has absolutely no diminishing bearing on our power of weighing our actions.
it is determined that you weigh actions? by which standard?

didn't choose that either?

-Imp
Moral culpability never was dependent on the metaphysical and utterly nonsensical because unfalsifiable question of free will.
Morality is a value judgment, not a question of 19th century pseudo physics.

In other words, the moral culpability of a criminal is actually a function of the mental health of the judge.


If you believe otherwise, you get this scenario:

sanity is defined as having a set of values (response patterns)
person A does something way out of has value set like kill a thousand civilians
person A says he thinks this was a righteous and moral act
person A is on that ground diagnosed as "insane"
on the grounds of insanity it is decided that person A can not be condemned for what he did
person A goes free
person A is thereby proven right that what he did was a moral, or at least not an immoral act.

See the question of morality must apply to acts and consequences, which can be discerned, and not to the interior world of persons, which cannot be discerned.
person A exercised his free will and chose to act ... that fact that you set whatever standard to judge that action, his own judgement or an outside judge, is still dependent on person A's choice of action ...

-Imp

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