What Is Value?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

barbarianhorde
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:46 pm

Re: What Is Value?

Post by barbarianhorde »

Somehow we know value. We dont have to think about it, we rather think from it. It is our premise on which we stand when we perform the precarious act of reasoning.

Im glad you kept going as now we are getting somewhere where discussions haven't gone for years. It used to be more of a thing around 2000 especially, but confusion has entered on a massive scale and one seldom reads of cosmic consciousness anymore. So pessimism is quite natural, but I am simply incapable of it, as I have seen glimpses of....

One small bit of integrity can disturb a huge sea of chaos out of its sleep, and awaken a slow but sure process to structural integrity that takes root inside humans, their cells (health improves) and their environments of which they are pillars.

In my understanding of value, integrity is the standard on which all valuation is built. A grand crux - for example, an act performed out of and with integrity can usually count on consequences one can handle without life losing its momentum. Acts done out of dishonesty come back to haunt by consequences in dark alleys to the heart, unseen by the person. We do not need to believe in an almighty living authority in order to understand that we need to act with integrity.

A great point of agreement between us is that all value is derived from structural integrity.

A literal example is the gold-standard which was abandoned by Nixon, thawing our conception of value in disarray and coming to rely on debt as value. Of all atoms in our perceptible cosmos, gold has the greatest, most perfect structural integrity. Therefore it cant react to other atoms and is untarnishable. For this reason it has been "felt" (interpreted, valued) as a value-standard.

And so it is with "a heart of gold" - a heart which doesn't listen to things outside of itself, so it can hear itself perfectly, and respond to what is really needed. Such hearts who dont listen to neighbours but rather to the rhythm of which they are part, which is all-around, are heard universally by all human hearts.

We are only beginning to awaken, I see two thousand years of task mastering at the hands of philosophy and music, and I feel we should embrace the primitive seeming music of black Americans, who are after all powerful chained people who have overcome their slavery and thus worthy of much philosophic interest, is a first drum beat of a global consciousness which reverberates with a cosmic consciousness, in which not only values of absolute integrity are reflected, but in which also the Earth, the raped maiden, is given her place as a bloody creature. We need to get down and dirty as humans, and we are, in order to even know what precisely we are supposed to clean up.

That cleanup project is the maiden. If you ask me - or the preChristian templars.
Rather than chastised she must be sanctified - with a conscience.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 6220
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: What Is Value?

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

barbarianhorde wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:42 pm Somehow we know value. We dont have to think about it, we rather think from it. It is our premise on which we stand when we perform the precarious act of reasoning.

Im glad you kept going as now we are getting somewhere where discussions haven't gone for years. It used to be more of a thing around 2000 especially, but confusion has entered on a massive scale and one seldom reads of cosmic consciousness anymore. So pessimism is quite natural, but I am simply incapable of it, as I have seen glimpses of....

One small bit of integrity can disturb a huge sea of chaos out of its sleep, and awaken a slow but sure process to structural integrity that takes root inside humans, their cells (health improves) and their environments of which they are pillars.

In my understanding of value, integrity is the standard on which all valuation is built. A grand crux - for example, an act performed out of and with integrity can usually count on consequences one can handle without life losing its momentum. Acts done out of dishonesty come back to haunt by consequences in dark alleys to the heart, unseen by the person. We do not need to believe in an almighty living authority in order to understand that we need to act with integrity.

A great point of agreement between us is that all value is derived from structural integrity.

A literal example is the gold-standard which was abandoned by Nixon, thawing our conception of value in disarray and coming to rely on debt as value. Of all atoms in our perceptible cosmos, gold has the greatest, most perfect structural integrity. Therefore it cant react to other atoms and is untarnishable. For this reason it has been "felt" (interpreted, valued) as a value-standard.

And so it is with "a heart of gold" - a heart which doesn't listen to things outside of itself, so it can hear itself perfectly, and respond to what is really needed. Such hearts who dont listen to neighbours but rather to the rhythm of which they are part, which is all-around, are heard universally by all human hearts.

We are only beginning to awaken, I see two thousand years of task mastering at the hands of philosophy and music, and I feel we should embrace the primitive seeming music of black Americans, who are after all powerful chained people who have overcome their slavery and thus worthy of much philosophic interest, is a first drum beat of a global consciousness which reverberates with a cosmic consciousness, in which not only values of absolute integrity are reflected, but in which also the Earth, the raped maiden, is given her place as a bloody creature. We need to get down and dirty as humans, and we are, in order to even know what precisely we are supposed to clean up.

That cleanup project is the maiden. If you ask me - or the preChristian templars.
Rather than chastised she must be sanctified - with a conscience.
We assume value, as value is grounding in the connection of assumption that reflects how we assume.

The continual reptitition of certain core assumption, ie "integrity", gives identity as a means of assuming reality itself.

If I assume that assumption is necessary I form an assumed value of "reflection" which determines how I assume reality...ie "reflect on it". The repeating of this assumption, as an assumption directs the course of how I assume reality considering this "form" act as the means to which we observe reality. If I do not assume I am unaware, but if I assume nothing (fundamentally my natural state of unawareness) I become aware as ignorance or "nothing" negates itself.

This value of reflection is inherent however thus necessity that we are inherently "moral" creatures by default considering our nature to assume.
Nick_A
Posts: 5203
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: What Is Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Bbh
A great point of agreement between us is that all value is derived from structural integrity.
Quite true but the question remains if structural integrity is the result of subjective assumptions Eod wrote of or objective laws we can experience the value of emotionally as conscience? Assumptions are the results of our acquired personalities while objective conscience is the expression of soul knowledge we are born with

Cosmic consciousness is the awareness of our insignificance from a universal perspective. Einstein described it:
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.

The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.
We are only beginning to awaken,
True, but the world denies it. Those like Simone and Einstein were capable of looking up with humility and admitting their nothingness in the face of the quality of being of our great universe. Modern Man is being trained to ignore the big picture and look down. The result is to become enchanted with the results of technology and define value by enchantment.

When was the last time you were in the presence of a person who had felt their nothingness but at the same time had a glimpse of what it means to awaken? They have felt the value of human "being" and do not desire to prostitute it.
barbarianhorde
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:46 pm

Re: What Is Value?

Post by barbarianhorde »

There is a logical flaw in Einsteins view here and in his own understanding of the implications of Relativity. It is the same flaw he exposed with his objection to QM and Heisenberg.

This flaw is: Relativity itself shows how the universe does not have a universal reference frame but must be understood locally, by measuring in terms of its parts. (reference frames)

In this same way, he overlooks that cosmic consciousness does not annihilate mans honour or significance, but rather rests on it.

We all carry, at least if we aren't completely useless or perverse, a part of there weight of God. To deny this, to assume we could just as well disappear and the cosmos would lose none of its splendour, is a crime against the cosmos.

Look even just at how much work went into creating you. Millions of generations of beings worked their heart out for that. You are infinitely significant, and that is why the cosmos is magnificent. Because all its parts have been honed by billions of years of absolute effort.

Einstein never could resolve the seeming contradiction between Relativity and the Uncertainty Principle, whereas it is actually implicit in the very nature of Relativity that any quantum of energy has its own reference frame and can only be determined from within that frame.

Einstein denied the autonomy of Quanta. But this autonomy is the soul of God.
User avatar
HexHammer
Posts: 3349
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: What Is Value?

Post by HexHammer »

barbarianhorde wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pmIm new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
Irrelevant question, go look it up in a dictionary! This is a philosophy forum, philosophy = love of wisdom, not complete retardness!
Nick_A
Posts: 5203
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: What Is Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Bbh
This flaw is: Relativity itself shows how the universe does not have a universal reference frame but must be understood locally, by measuring in terms of its parts. (reference frames)
Of course it does. Consider the relationship of the ONE to Nous as described by Plotinus. Nous is the initial intelligence within creation which contemplates the ONE
In this same way, he overlooks that cosmic consciousness does not annihilate mans honour or significance, but rather rests on it.

We all carry, at least if we aren't completely useless or perverse, a part of there weight of God. To deny this, to assume we could just as well disappear and the cosmos would lose none of its splendour, is a crime against the cosmos.
I can’t believe you are being serious. What is so significant about a form of life whose chief claim to fame is hypocrisy?

Consider the enormity of our universe – the infinity of galaxies and the suns and planets within them. We live on the tiniest of specks called Earth. Can you say with a straight face that if the earth is destroyed it will make the slightest difference to the meaning and purpose of our universe?
Look even just at how much work went into creating you. Millions of generations of beings worked their heart out for that. You are infinitely significant, and that is why the cosmos is magnificent. Because all its parts have been honed by billions of years of absolute effort.
We have a basic difference. You believe the universe exists to serve the greatness of Man and I believe Man’s potential greatness lies in its potential for conscious evolution making it possible for man to consciously serve universal meaning and purpose.
barbarianhorde
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:46 pm

Re: What Is Value?

Post by barbarianhorde »

HexHammer wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:36 am
barbarianhorde wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pmIm new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
Irrelevant question, go look it up in a dictionary! This is a philosophy forum, philosophy = love of wisdom, not complete retardness!
Ah I see. Then why don't you go look in the dictionary what "being" means and just forget about philosophy?

Interesting to be asking an irrelevant question that no one here has been able to answer.

This site is really comical.
barbarianhorde
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:46 pm

Re: What Is Value?

Post by barbarianhorde »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:16 am Bbh
This flaw is: Relativity itself shows how the universe does not have a universal reference frame but must be understood locally, by measuring in terms of its parts. (reference frames)
Of course it does. Consider the relationship of the ONE to Nous as described by Plotinus. Nous is the initial intelligence within creation which contemplates the ONE
Ok well I see you aren't familiar with Relativity. Thats cool, its not easy. But I think that puts some limits on our conversation.
In this same way, he overlooks that cosmic consciousness does not annihilate mans honour or significance, but rather rests on it.

We all carry, at least if we aren't completely useless or perverse, a part of there weight of God. To deny this, to assume we could just as well disappear and the cosmos would lose none of its splendour, is a crime against the cosmos.
I can’t believe you are being serious. What is so significant about a form of life whose chief claim to fame is hypocrisy?
It is interesting that you, as a member of this species you loathe, still decide you can speak for the whole of the cosmos, its objective values no less.

So if you loathe humanity so much, you must really loathe trees. Seeing as they come even lower in your scheme.

I for me can only respect my judgments if I respect myself, and I can only respect myself if I respect what I am.
Consider the enormity of our universe – the infinity of galaxies and the suns and planets within them. We live on the tiniest of specks called Earth. Can you say with a straight face that if the earth is destroyed it will make the slightest difference to the meaning and purpose of our universe?
Can you say without burning in hell that any part of Gods creation is insignificant?
Look even just at how much work went into creating you. Millions of generations of beings worked their heart out for that. You are infinitely significant, and that is why the cosmos is magnificent. Because all its parts have been honed by billions of years of absolute effort.
We have a basic difference. You believe the universe exists to serve the greatness of Man and I believe Man’s potential greatness lies in its potential for conscious evolution making it possible for man to consciously serve universal meaning and purpose.
No Nick, I dont believe that " the universe exists to serve the greatness of Man". And I never said anything of the sort.

As I said, this site is special.
Nick_A
Posts: 5203
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: What Is Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Bbh
It is interesting that you, as a member of this species you loathe, still decide you can speak for the whole of the cosmos, its objective values no less.

So if you loathe humanity so much, you must really loathe trees. Seeing as they come even lower in your scheme.
I have observed life cycles within nature. Nothing stays the same but just serves as part of a cycle resulting in “dust to dust.” The fact that I recognize it doesn’t mean I loathe it
I for me can only respect my judgments if I respect myself, and I can only respect myself if I respect what I am.
What are you? You can respect an opinion of yourself and what you believe you are but in reality the question “what I Am” is the beginning of philosophy.

Does a person experiencing their nothingness in the light of their conscious potential require the emotional component of loathing? No, it just requires consciously and impartially witnessing the human condition as it exists in us. The Ways offer the possibility of conscious change in our being while Plato’s cave offers the potential for more sophisticated arguments in favor of our imagination which defines what we are in the world..
Can you say without burning in hell that any part of Gods creation is insignificant?
Yes. The universe is a machine and like any machine works by laws. The significance of life within it is defined by its purpose. The species of mice are significant for the needs of the earth, They both transform substances by their life processes and serve as food for other forms of life. However one mouse more or less is insignificant in terms of the needs of the earth. The value of mice in terms of the needs of the earth is not the same as the value of a mouse.

Many believe it is the same with humanity. Our species serves the earth as physical animal man by transforming substances through our bodily processes and serving as food after death. Leaving the question of the soul out of it for now, animal man is insignificant as a species but an individual acquires significance through becoming conscious. (awakening) Human consciousness serves a universal need while animal consciousness serves the needs of the earth so is said to be meaningless or lacking significance..
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9079
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: What Is Value?

Post by Immanuel Can »

barbarianhorde wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
Do you mean "value" as a verb, or "value" as a noun?

In other words, do you mean, "Why do we value certain things," or "What is one of these things we call a 'value'"?
Atla
Posts: 2955
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: What Is Value?

Post by Atla »

barbarianhorde wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:50 pm Im new here and I have one main question. What is value? How can value be defined?
Do you expect people to say something like: "value" is the all-pervasive force of the universe, the bread and butter of existence, the logic of being? :)

Value Ontology from the king of philosophy himself.
Atum
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:59 pm

Re: What Is Value?

Post by Atum »

Value is merely ones individual perspective towards oneself and for others. In todays society value is perceived more common with academic smarts, a good paid job, nice house, car etc.. These things will bring value towards others like yourself, and in return you'll find value within them also.
I find this kind of value superficial and emotionally taxing because it challenges your integrity everyday when true value is the insight you might gain after a midlife crisis. To just go back, reset, and acknowledge that superficial value doesn't make you happy, but being able to understand the difference is true value.
jayjacobus
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 pm

Re: What Is Value?

Post by jayjacobus »

I see your point but unfortunately money is the frame of reference for value. 10 chickens and 5 goats have a monetary vale. You are thinking in the abstract. You are suggesting that there are feelings and perspectives that have no monetary value but do have an incalculable value to the person with the feelings and perspective. I think you are right.
Nick_A
Posts: 5203
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: What Is Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Atum wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:01 pm Value is merely ones individual perspective towards oneself and for others. In todays society value is perceived more common with academic smarts, a good paid job, nice house, car etc.. These things will bring value towards others like yourself, and in return you'll find value within them also.
I find this kind of value superficial and emotionally taxing because it challenges your integrity everyday when true value is the insight you might gain after a midlife crisis. To just go back, reset, and acknowledge that superficial value doesn't make you happy, but being able to understand the difference is true value.

I like how it is described in the Bible
Matthew 6

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[c] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[d] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
We have developed unhealthy eyes incapable of recognizing qualities of value. Money has become the master ensuring the fall of culture. Give the Devil his due. He's won that round.
Post Reply