Past, PRESENT--future?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6351
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:26 pm

Richardmc wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:10 pm
Maybe I can put this better. The future is not real because it has not yet happened. Reality occurs and begins when it happens. The future is not real because it has not yet happened. Of course I accept that the future is a valid concept of things to come, but it is not yet reality. I hope that I have made this clearer.
Well, that's right...and it raises a further interesting question.

"How is it that human beings can project a future that does not yet exist?" And they don't just project it a little bit -- say, as a cat can think about the future long enough to head off a mouse from dodging left, and so get a quick meal; that could just be instinct, not foresight, for all we know -- but we humans project whole future worlds, even long-term ones, and ways of being that are not at all evident now, or uses for things that have not yet been conceived, for purposes we don't yet have, so as to live in lifestyles that as yet live only in things to come?"

That's a long question. But it's a really important one. Why do human beings have this unique ability to project the future, and to do it so very elaborately that all other creatures do it but dimly by comparison (if they do it at all)?

Moreover, this ability has REAL payoffs. It makes us incalculably more powerful than all other creatures. And that looks very odd...because how can being unrealistic be any kind of advantage? But it allows us to bring-into-being all kinds of things that lower animals are utterly incapable of producing. Human beings are uniquely makers-of-future-realities. And that's pretty "real" stuff, wouldn't you say?

So you say something quite profound when you say we make "a valid concept of things to come." It's not merely that we make things that are, perhaps, rationally valid but cannot exist, but we can actually make reality behave after some of the future images we project in our brains.

Pretty impressive stuff.

Age
Posts: 3242
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by Age » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:37 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:36 pm
Age wrote:
Really the Universe is VERY SIMPLE

It is just human beings themselves who complicate things and make things hard to understand

The Universe is just made up of two very basic and very simple fundamental things

The nothing part of the Universe provides the something part of the Universe the ability to move about FREELY which allows the
Universe to evolve into the pre DETERMINED Self Aware and Conscious Being that It is ALWAYS going to BE COME or come to Be
I think there is much more to the Universe than simply objects and the space that exists between them
What else could there be?

What are some examples of these "there is much more"?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:36 pm
I do not know if there is pre determinism with regard to the Universe but I am very sceptical about this
You can not do any other than with the thoughts within that body, could you?

The thoughts within that body are determined in the sense that they are there because of pre-vious conditions. Or, in other words, pre-conditioning. Now the way you will behave or misbehave will be determined by those pre-determined or pre-gained thoughts. So, in this sense, the Universe is pre-determined by previous actions/behaviors, or previous inter-actions. How you will act/behave is pre-determined by the thoughts you have now. But EQUALLY you are FREE to choose to do absolutely any thing you like. You are, however, limited in your choices because you can only choose from the pre-existing thoughts you have. You may come up with some new thoughts/ideas, but they are pre-determined, in a sense, because they only came about from the adding up of at least two or more pre-existing thoughts you had.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:36 pm
I do know that it is too complex for me to understand on any fundamental level as my knowledge of it is very limited
my knowledge would have been a tiny fraction of yours. But I was able to make sense of ALL-THERE-IS, very easily and very simply NOT because of my very limited knowledge but because of just LOOKING AT things from another perspective, and that is all.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:36 pm
The sheer quantity of knowledge alone would be impossible to process even if it was all relatively easy to understand
But that is the seemingly contradictory and paradoxical Nature of Life, Itself. Discovering just HOW simple and easy it is to SEE the Truth of things really IS, is KNOWING that 'i', the individual personal self, will know relatively nothing compared to ALL there IS to know. But that I am ABLE to learn AND understand ANY thing, that is: If I Truly do WANT to LEARN and UNDERSTAND them.

That what is NOT yet KNOWN by most, like ALL the Truly meaningful questions; Who am I? What is our purpose for being here? What is the meaning of Life? How does the Mind and the brain work? Why am I here? et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and all the other seemingly impossible things to learn and understand are REALLY the most basic and simple to discover and KNOW. In fact they are so simple and easy to KNOW thee ANSWERS to ALL of these questions are ALREADY KNOWN within us. The information is even locked up in the dna, and the knowledge of ALL of this is right there to be un-covered and revealed.

So, what seems to be impossible to KNOW is actually ALREADY KNOWN, just unconsciously and waiting to be consciously KNOWN. As for ALL the other knowledge waiting to be discovered, then that is just the truly physical stuff, which the knowledge of that stuff just comes with continual observation AND experience, of which OBVIOUSLY NO one human being could even know how little they really know. For example, imagine how long have human beings been around for compared to the Universe, Itself, and imagine how much of the Universe human beings have actually visited and thus Truly know? Now, imagine how much ALL of human kind KNOWS collectively, and compare that to how much 'you', as one individual, knows. What would the percentage be of what one individual knows compared to the thousands of human beings collectively know. How little would one really ever know compared to ALL of human kind, itself, and then how little would both just one individual AND ALL of humankind, itself, KNOW compared to what there is to learn and KNOW in relation to the Universe, Itself. Considering how insignificant ALL of human beings are, let alone just one, is NOT even some thing really worth considering. So, worrying about or wanting to gain MORE knowledge of what I call just 'meaningless stuff', to me, is of NO real concern.

Just discovering or learning the most basic, simple, and just plain fundamental 'meaningful stuff' provides the REAL and TRUE Answers that ALL have been seeking and LOOKING FOR since coming into this thing we call 'Existence'. This is the Truly simple and easy 'stuff' to learn and understand. As you REALLY ALREADY KNOW IT, you just do NOT yet KNOW that you do.

Also, once how the Mind and the brain actually work is learned and understood by more and more people, then the speed at which ALL the other stuff in the Universe is discovered and learned increases exponentially, at a phenomenal rate. But not discovered and learned by ALL people, as what is learned is STILL solely depended upon WANTS and DESIRES. Although there are some things that ALL people WANT and DESIRE equally. ALL people also WANT and DESIRE different things individually.

Age
Posts: 3242
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by Age » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:54 pm

jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:01 pm
Age wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:02 am
If there is a 'point in time', then what is 'time', to you, exactly?
Time is defined as a series of states. If there is only one state, then there is no time because everything is frozen.
Why does it HAVE TO BE necessarily "frozen".

Why can one state NOT be in constant-motion?

Also, that is the point of one state, there can be one state of constant-change AND there is NO time, which is exactly how what appears to be happening, to me.
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:01 pm
Now is only the current state (or a sequence of deduced states that give now a duration).
What do you mean by "current state" exactly?

A point in time is either a past state (which is remembered), a future state (which is expected) or the present state (which is perceived).[/quote]

Agreed that that is how 'a point in time' is referred to.
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:01 pm
The memory exists now and the expectation exists now but no past state exists now nor does any future state exist now. Only the present state exists now
When you say 'present state', what do you actually mean?

Are you saying the 'present state' is different to some 'other state'?

If yes, then HOW are these 'states' actually different?

The current state I observe is in a current state of constant-motion or constant-change. So, what do these so called "other states" LOOK LIKE to you? And, how do those "states" actually behave?
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:01 pm
but our brain extends our perception over a sequence of states making now appear to have a duration (of unknown length).
Only because you are talking about a human brain of some years that has grown up with watches and clocks and "others" telling that brain that there are separate and different states of duration.

The human brain is very easy to fall victim to these types of illusions and beliefs.
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:01 pm
Without memory time would not be perceived.
But what is being perceived actually?

'Time' or just a 'change'?

If it is 'time', then as I said earlier what is 'time', exactly?

If it is 'change', then I agree.
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:01 pm
We would be stuck in the present without a clue as to how to deal with the present.
This seems rather far fetched and very unrealistic.

What do you mean by "stuck in the present"?

If there is NO change, thus EVERY thing is frozen completely, then you certainly will NOT have to worry about "having a clue or not, about what to do", as you obviously will NOT be doing any thing at all anyway.
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:01 pm
If you are on a boat, the instantaneous position is now, the evidence of the past is in the wake and the evidence of the future is in the heading.
If you think that I do not yet understand this, then I think you have completely MISSED what I am talking about.

By the way, do you remember the quote of my that you are responding to you here?

If yes, then you did NOT answer my question, which was, What is 'time', to you, exactly?

To me, the word 'time' is just a word used in reference to change, and 'time' is NOT some actual thing itself.

Skepdick
Posts: 1706
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by Skepdick » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:08 pm

Richardmc wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:52 pm
Once again, I did not say the future is unreal. I said that the future is unknowable because it has not yet become real(i.e.present).
It doesn't matter what adjective you use to describe it. I will keep asking you the same question.

The point is that you spending non-zero amount of time thinking about the <insert some adjective here> future.

What is the reason which causes you to spend any of your time worrying about u̶n̶r̶e̶a̶l̶ unknowable things?

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:34 am

Age wrote:
worrying about or wanting to gain MORE knowledge of what I call just meaningless stuff to me is of NO real concern

discovering or learning the most basic simple and just plain fundamental meaningful stuff provides the REAL and TRUE Answers that ALL have
been seeking and LOOKING FOR since coming into this thing we call Existence . This is the Truly simple and easy stuff to learn and understand
As you REALLY ALREADY KNOW IT you just do NOT yet KNOW that you do
I dont worry about wanting to gain knowledge as it is just something that I like to do
Simply learning for the sake of learning and that is all there is to it - no more no less

I am simply passing through Existence and my own existence in this mind and and body is therefore temporary
This does not bother me because I am not at all afraid of death . I dont know if the fundamental truth you are
referring to here will have been discovered by me before I die . For only time will tell

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:52 am

Age wrote:
What is time to you exactly
Time is the temporal measurement of change within a thing or between things
Time is the temporal difference between any two points within physical space
Time is the passing of an event or events or the passing of a thought or thoughts

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:05 am

Skepdick wrote:
What is the reason which causes you to spend any of your time worrying about unknowable things
Not all future events are unknowable - some are definitely going to happen
For example I know that I am going to die and that might cause me to worry

Now I dont actually have a fear of death but if I did then its absolute certainty could not stop me from worrying about it if I was so inclined
The real problem here is not whether worrying about the future is justified or not but why human beings do worry so much about the future

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:23 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Why do human beings have this unique ability to project the future and to do it so very elaborately

we can actually make reality behave after some of the future images we project in our brains
The future that we create within our own imagination and the actual future that then comes to pass are not the same
We cannot make reality at all as what happens is that reality imposes upon us and we simply have to accept it as it is

We therefore dont do anything to reality as reality does everything to us
So we are not the masters of our destiny as the future cannot be known

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:28 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
So we are not the masters of our destiny as the future cannot be known
Death is an absolute certainty but no one knows exactly when they will die

Skepdick
Posts: 1706
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by Skepdick » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:36 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:05 am
Skepdick wrote:
What is the reason which causes you to spend any of your time worrying about unknowable things
Not all future events are unknowable - some are definitely going to happen
For example I know that I am going to die and that might cause me to worry

Now I dont actually have a fear of death but if I did then its absolute certainty could not stop me from worrying about it if I was so inclined
The real problem here is not whether worrying about the future is justified or not but why human beings do worry so much about the future
As it happens - humans spent far less time worrying about future-death than they worry about future-(happiness|well-being|virtue|satisfaction).

You desire some outcomes more. You desire some outcomes less. But it is about desire.

Without desire - the future is irrelevant.

Skepdick
Posts: 1706
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by Skepdick » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:51 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:28 am
Death is an absolute certainty but no one knows exactly when they will die
Unless you determine the time yourself.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:00 am

Even then one cannot be certain as not all suicides are successful
No one knows the exact time of their death only that they will die
The future is therefore always a blank slate as it has yet to happen

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 6351
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:40 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:23 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Why do human beings have this unique ability to project the future and to do it so very elaborately

we can actually make reality behave after some of the future images we project in our brains
The future that we create within our own imagination and the actual future that then comes to pass are not the same
No, of course they aren't. But they aren't entirely different...unconnected...irrelevant to one another either. The future we project may not become exactly the future we get; but it's the cause of the future we get, and determines much of its shape, one way or the other.
We cannot make reality at all as what happens is that reality imposes upon us and we simply have to accept it as it is
If that were true, and that were the whole story, then nothing we imagine could be brought to bear fruit in the future. But that's clearly not how it works. Before we obtain that degree at university, we imagine that we will. Before we marry the woman of our dreams, we have to imagine being with her. Before we become successful doctors, we have to imaginatively project that future. If we do not, we will not attain it because we will not reach out to bring it into reality.

And it's that ability that I'm pointing to: not to any supposed ability to control the future absolutely, but the power to set its directions by our own ambitions, intentions, envisioning and mental projection.
We therefore dont do anything to reality as reality does everything to us
This is obviously no so. Only a strict Determinist could even imagine it is true.

But even he is going to act as if it's NOT true, because he is also going to have his plans, imaginings, intentions and projections about the future, and he's going to think -- even though his own creed denies it -- that it will make a difference which of these he chooses. You can see this, because if you deny or thwart his plans for himself, he will become irate, just like anybody will.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
We cannot make reality at all as what happens is that reality imposes upon us and we simply have to accept it as it is
If that were true and that were the whole story then nothing we imagine could be brought to bear fruit in the future
The relationship between what we imagine will happen and what really does happen is most definitely not a causal one
It is at best correlative because no matter how careful we plan for the future there is no guarantee it will come to pass
I would even say it is not correlative but merely coincidental for one cannot be guaranteed of any plan being successful

We may think that there is correlation or causation with the advantage of hindsight but there are also times when plans do not come to pass
The probability of anything happening exactly as we anticipate it is only I00 per cent if it is logically the only possible outcome there can be

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Past, PRESENT--future?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:15 pm

Reality does not know what our mental state is but it is reality that actually determines the future
Therefore us being able to project any imaginary one will have no effect upon what reality will do

Randomness by definition pertains to all possibilities having an equal chance of coming to pass
Human beings by virtue of favouring one possibility over all others dont always understand this

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests