One for the loons.

[uwot]

You must allow people their illusions. That's sometimes all they got.

Well yeah, I'm all for compassion, but if you can't afford to lose it, lock it up somewhere safe.

In most cases, opinions stick like crazy glue no matter how crazy they are.

Of course. I keep making the point that philosophy is essentially story-telling. It can tell you whether your story is valid, or at least coherent, but in many, many cases it is powerless to judge whether it is sound. The only thing that philosophy has said for certain in two and a half thousand years, in essence, is that something's going on and it involves experience. Beyond that it should be blindingly obvious, to anyone who has made any serious attempt to get their head round philosophy, that you can't tell anything definite about the world outside the windows either side of your nose, using only the stuff between your ears.

It's the life blood of philosophy forums.

And the bane.

The term common sense is actually an oxymoron; in practice it's extremely elitist.

I dunno. Seems to me that often enough, people who appeal to common sense don't understand the issue.

[Atla]

No serious thinkers here at all?

And are you a serious thinker, despite believing in some objective values? Or is there a line you won't cross?

[Dubious]

The term common sense is actually an oxymoron; in practice it's extremely elitist.

I dunno. Seems to me that often enough, people who appeal to common sense don't understand the issue.

...except that common sense, if one really has it, would know that opinions are not facts nor are they theory but merely temporary placeholders in one's current view of reality. It would also realize that a conclusion can be perfectly logical even though its premises are false which happens all the time. Not least, asking for proof to make a point, which is so common on philosophy forums, for conditions where proof doesn't apply only proves to someone with an iota of common sense that the one demanding it is a fucking idiot.

A properly functioning operating system is doomed to go defunct if not upgraded occasionally.

[barbarianhorde]

No serious thinkers here at all?

And are you a serious thinker, despite believing in some objective values? Or is there a line you won't cross?

I dont believe in anything. I just know oxygen is objectively valuable to a mammal.

So it is objectively required for a specific type of subject's survival.

See how I went beyond the whole silly dichotomy that has been presented as "philosophy" in recent centuries?
I am the first to have done this. And yet I was so easy.

[uwot]

...except that common sense, if one really has it, would know that opinions are not facts nor are they theory but merely temporary placeholders in one's current view of reality. It would also realize that a conclusion can be perfectly logical even though its premises are false which happens all the time.

Well yeah, the misapprehension that a coherent story is a true one is much more common than the 'common sense' you describe. Many physicists, who you'd think would know better, have a pet theory, or at least one they prefer to any of the alternatives. Give 'em a couple of beers, and they are apt to start slurring at you exactly why they are right.

Not least, asking for proof to make a point, which is so common on philosophy forums, for conditions where proof doesn't apply only proves to someone with an iota of common sense that the one demanding it is a fucking idiot.

You're pushing against an open door, mate.

A properly functioning operating system is doomed to go defunct if not upgraded occasionally.

Almost certainly.

[Atla]

No serious thinkers here at all?

And are you a serious thinker, despite believing in some objective values? Or is there a line you won't cross?

I dont believe in anything. I just know oxygen is objectively valuable to a mammal.

So it is objectively required for a specific type of subject's survival.

See how I went beyond the whole silly dichotomy that has been presented as "philosophy" in recent centuries?
I am the first to have done this. And yet I was so easy.

Looks like you just changed the meaning of 'value' to something more like 'requirement' or 'necessity'.

[uwot]

I dont believe in anything. I just know oxygen is objectively valuable to a mammal.
So it is objectively required for a specific type of subject's survival.

I think most of the (non loony) people here know that if you deprive a mammal of oxygen, it will quickly die.

See how I went beyond the whole silly dichotomy that has been presented as "philosophy" in recent centuries?
I am the first to have done this. And yet I was so easy.

Congratulations!

Er, I'm not clear what "silly dichotomy" you are talking about.

[barbarianhorde]

And are you a serious thinker, despite believing in some objective values? Or is there a line you won't cross?

I dont believe in anything. I just know oxygen is objectively valuable to a mammal.

So it is objectively required for a specific type of subject's survival.

See how I went beyond the whole silly dichotomy that has been presented as "philosophy" in recent centuries?
I am the first to have done this. And yet I was so easy.

Looks like you just changed the meaning of 'value' to something more like 'requirement' or 'necessity'.

Would you not agree that a requirement is a strong value, and that necessity is an absolute value?

[Atla]

I dont believe in anything. I just know oxygen is objectively valuable to a mammal.

So it is objectively required for a specific type of subject's survival.

See how I went beyond the whole silly dichotomy that has been presented as "philosophy" in recent centuries?
I am the first to have done this. And yet I was so easy.

Looks like you just changed the meaning of 'value' to something more like 'requirement' or 'necessity'.

Would you not agree that a requirement is a strong value, and that necessity is an absolute value?

No, I wouldn't call either of them values.

[barbarianhorde]

I think most of the (non loony) people here know that if you deprive a mammal of oxygen, it will quickly die.

Indeed, that is why I picked this example! Bravo.

Congratulations!

Er, I'm not clear what "silly dichotomy" you are talking about.

Yeah, I noticed you've not been paying any attention at all.

The dichotomy between "objective" and "subjective".

[barbarianhorde]

Looks like you just changed the meaning of 'value' to something more like 'requirement' or 'necessity'.

Would you not agree that a requirement is a strong value, and that necessity is an absolute value?

No, I wouldn't call either of them values.

You're lying to yourself then. If something which is necessary to you (like oxygen) wasn't of value to you (pursued by you), you'd be dead.

[Atla]

Would you not agree that a requirement is a strong value, and that necessity is an absolute value?

No, I wouldn't call either of them values.

You're lying to yourself then. If something which is necessary to you (like oxygen) wasn't of value to you (pursued by you), you'd be dead.

Value and "of value" have different meanings.

[uwot]

Yeah, I noticed you've not been paying any attention at all.

I'm a busy old sausage.

The dichotomy between "objective" and "subjective".

Ah, thanks for the clarification. So you think your misattributed 'subjective' experience is actually the same as everyone else's?

[Atla]

Would you not agree that a requirement is a strong value, and that necessity is an absolute value?

No, I wouldn't call either of them values.

You're lying to yourself then. If something which is necessary to you (like oxygen) wasn't of value to you (pursued by you), you'd be dead.

I'll help a bit, in normal language, "value" has two main meanings:

value
noun

1. the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.
"your support is of great value"
synonyms: merit, worth, usefulness, use, utility, practicality, advantage, desirability, benefit, gain, profit, good, service, help, helpfulness, assistance, effectiveness, efficacy, avail, importance, significance, point, sense; informalmileage
"the value of adequate preparation cannot be understated"

2. principles or standards of behaviour; one's judgement of what is important in life.
"they internalize their parents' rules and values"
synonyms: principles, moral principles, ethics, moral code, morals, moral values, standards, moral standards, code of behaviour, rules of conduct, standards of behaviour
"society's values are passed on to us as children"

You only seem to be talking about the first one. "Of value" also refers to the first one.

However in philosophy, when we talk about objective and subjective values, we are of course referring to the second meaning.

As such, you haven't achieved something for the first time in history, you are merely conflating the two meanings and end up with something that doesn't make sense.

[Dubious]

Not least, asking for proof to make a point, which is so common on philosophy forums, for conditions where proof doesn't apply only proves to someone with an iota of common sense that the one demanding it is a fucking idiot.

You're pushing against an open door, mate.

Actually it was a not so secret message to a certain notorious theist on the site.