Philosophy is created by belief!

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Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:11 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:04 pm
This is not dualism in any sense. The meaning are multitudinous. There can be as many meanings as there are readers. But the more context you have to less meanings you get.
This is the very argument post-modern philosophers make. It's not that text is meaningless, it's that text has too much meaning.

Without the author guiding your interpretation, it's almost certain that you are mis-interpreting a book.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:19 pm
But the ambiguity disappears when you have a context you total moronic fuckwited twat.
But you don't have A CONTEXT (one, 1, singular), you fuckwitted doubletwat.
You have TWO CONTEXTS (2, two, plural).

For as long as you have MORE THAN ONE CONTEXT, the meaning of the word 'bank' (as I intended it to be understood) remains ambiguous to you.

Which is exactly what I claimed.
Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:01 pm
Contexts (plural) create ambiguity.

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Sculptor
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Sculptor » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:48 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:11 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:04 pm
This is not dualism in any sense. The meaning are multitudinous. There can be as many meanings as there are readers. But the more context you have to less meanings you get.
This is the very argument post-modern philosophers make. It's not that text is meaningless, it's that text has too much meaning.

Without the author guiding your interpretation, it's almost certain that you are mis-interpreting a book.
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:19 pm
But the ambiguity disappears when you have a context you total moronic fuckwited twat.
But you don't have A CONTEXT (one, 1, singular), you fuckwitted doubletwat.
You have TWO CONTEXTS (2, two, plural).

For as long as you have MORE THAN ONE CONTEXT, the meaning of the word 'bank' (as I intended it to be understood) remains ambiguous to you.

Which is exactly what I claimed.
Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:01 pm
Contexts (plural) create ambiguity.
You boy that put dick in to skeptic.
You were wrong. Stop wrigging about like a girl.

Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:02 am

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:48 pm
You were wrong.
Indeed. I thought you had at least one brain cell.

Thanks for correcting me.

commonsense
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by commonsense » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:22 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:42 pm
richardstephens wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:38 am
Yes, being an atheist myself it may sound strange, but I'm not necessarily talking about belief as in religion, rather I talk about belief like "believing in yourself", "believing in what you do", "believing in the virtue of x or the importance of y".

I've found that as I've been working on my philosophy of needs the real drive in me seems to be a belief and/or faith in the virtues of "need" that I can trace all the way back to my early childhood, a way of thinking that is encouraged in Norwegian society, taught by parents and school teachers, and yet not of course in the way I've done it, but the word "need", "human needs", "animals needs", "planet's needs", the needs of institutions and groups, have been such a recurring theme. People talk so much about what they need all the time to become something or to preserve something. In this sense I feel like a product of my time.
A "need" like any other value term is a term of relation. There are no independent needs. Before there can be a need there must first be an objective, a purpose, a goal for which something is needed to achieve or reach the objective or goal. Since you are treating "need" as if it were an independent thing, (which it cannot be) you are starting with a fallacy. If you begin with a fallacy, you end with a fallacy.
You are right, of course

Yet even though he didn’t explicitly say it, I took richardstephens’ post as if the objective and the need were conjoined, even if maybe he did not deserve such leniency.

I looked at it this way (I.e. I misinterpreted it as follows:)

Objective is food.
Need is also food.

or

Objective is to avoid starvation.
Need is still food.

In other words, by reading the comments charitably, I was able to see past the fallacies.

Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:42 pm
A "need" like any other value term is a term of relation. There are no independent needs. Before there can be a need there must first be an objective, a purpose, a goal for which something is needed to achieve or reach the objective or goal.
This is backwards.

Our needs come before our objectives. Our needs spawn our objectives. Many different objectives can satisfy the same need. Successfully accomplishing any one objective is sufficient to satisfy our needs.

I am hungry - I need food. Therefore I must hunt; or gather; or farm (objectives).
If I succeed at hunting, or gathering, or farming my need will be taken care of.

Without needs we don't need to have objectives.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:21 am

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:42 pm
A "need" like any other value term is a term of relation. There are no independent needs. Before there can be a need there must first be an objective, a purpose, a goal for which something is needed to achieve or reach the objective or goal.
This is backwards.

Our needs come before our objectives. Our needs spawn our objectives. Many different objectives can satisfy the same need. Successfully accomplishing any one objective is sufficient to satisfy our needs.

I am hungry - I need food. Therefore I must hunt; or gather; or farm (objectives).
If I succeed at hunting, or gathering, or farming my need will be taken care of.

Without needs we don't need to have objectives.
But objectively speaking "need" exists.

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A_Seagull
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by A_Seagull » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:11 am

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:19 pm

For myself I tend to never use "belief" since that can be used to state sure knowledge and faith based assertions; this makes the meaning of the word ambiguous.
All words are inherently ambiguous, including these.

It is why trying to make a rigorous philosophy that resides in the domain of words is entirely futile.

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RCSaunders
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by RCSaunders » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:30 am

commonsense wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:22 am
You are right, of course
...
In other words, by reading the comments charitably, I was able to see past the fallacies.
Fair enough! But read some of the following comments. Some actually believe needs exist independently or even precede objectives. The simple question, "needed by whom for what?" will clear that up.

Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:17 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:30 am
Fair enough! But read some of the following comments. Some actually believe needs exist independently or even precede objectives. The simple question, "needed by whom for what?" will clear that up.
The question presumes the conclusion. Confirmation bias.

I need to live. For what? That question doesn't make sense.

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Sculptor
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Sculptor » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:48 am

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:42 pm
A "need" like any other value term is a term of relation. There are no independent needs. Before there can be a need there must first be an objective, a purpose, a goal for which something is needed to achieve or reach the objective or goal.
This is backwards.

Our needs come before our objectives. Our needs spawn our objectives. Many different objectives can satisfy the same need. Successfully accomplishing any one objective is sufficient to satisfy our needs.

I am hungry - I need food. Therefore I must hunt; or gather; or farm (objectives).
If I succeed at hunting, or gathering, or farming my need will be taken care of.

Without needs we don't need to have objectives.
You are both wrong.
If I have an objective to travel to the next town I need a car, or a bus.
The objective precedes the need.
However, some needs precede the objective. When I feel hungry I then have an objective to find some food.
The need precedes the objective.

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Sculptor
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Sculptor » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:49 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:30 am
commonsense wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:22 am
You are right, of course
...
In other words, by reading the comments charitably, I was able to see past the fallacies.
Fair enough! But read some of the following comments. Some actually believe needs exist independently or even precede objectives. The simple question, "needed by whom for what?" will clear that up.
Needs can precede objectives, and objective can precede needs.

Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:13 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:48 am
You are both wrong.
If I have an objective to travel to the next town I need a car, or a bus.
IF you have an objective to travel to the next town.

Why do you need to travel to the next town?
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:48 am
The objective precedes the need.
However, some needs precede the objective. When I feel hungry I then have an objective to find some food.
The need precedes the objective.
Some needs precede some objectives, and some objectives precede some needs.

But the causal chain of needs-and-objectives starts with a need, not an objective.

You are welcome to keep equivocating though.
Last edited by Skepdick on Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sculptor
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Sculptor » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:15 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:13 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:48 am
You are both wrong.
If I have an objective to travel to the next town I need a car, or a bus.
"Car" or "bus" only answers the question "How do I achieve my objective?"

It doesn't answer the question "Why do I need to travel to the next town?"
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:48 am
The objective precedes the need.
However, some needs precede the objective. When I feel hungry I then have an objective to find some food.
The need precedes the objective.
Some needs precede some objectives, and some objectives precede some needs.

But the causal chain of needs-and-objectives starts with a need, not an objective.
Nope.
I do not NEED anything. I might want a new computer. I might want to have dinner with Lady Gaga, but I do not think I need anything. I do not even need to live.

Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:27 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:15 pm
I do not NEED anything. I might want a new computer.
Then you don't need a car or a bus either. I am sure the computer shop (from the next town) delivers.
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:15 pm
I do not think I need anything. I do not even need to live.
You have to be alive to have "wants". Why do you want to breathe?

Hold your breath for 15 minutes to demonstrate breathing is a want and not a need.

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RCSaunders
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Re: Philosophy is created by belief!

Post by RCSaunders » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:08 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:15 pm
Nope.
I do not NEED anything. I might want a new computer. I might want to have dinner with Lady Gaga, but I do not think I need anything. I do not even need to live.
Very good, Sculptor. It's only if you want to live that you will need anything. Nothing is needed to die, death is the default consequence of pursuing nothing.

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