Individualism vs. Collectivism

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uwot
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by uwot » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:37 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 pm
This isn't a trick question but I am curious if you believe there are any legitimate reason for sexual mores.
Frankly, I don't think it is anyone's business to interfere in two or more consenting and equal partners doing what they like with each other.
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 pm
Do you believe there could be some legitimate concerns for sexual expression you are unaware of?
I make it a habit not to believe in things I'm not aware of, but if there is something you believe should be brought to my attention, I'm all ears.

Nick_A
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Nick_A » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:22 pm

uwot wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:37 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 pm
This isn't a trick question but I am curious if you believe there are any legitimate reason for sexual mores.
Frankly, I don't think it is anyone's business to interfere in two or more consenting and equal partners doing what they like with each other.
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 pm
Do you believe there could be some legitimate concerns for sexual expression you are unaware of?
I make it a habit not to believe in things I'm not aware of, but if there is something you believe should be brought to my attention, I'm all ears.
This may appear as a controversial statement but I've witnessed that people taking pride in their rationality are often guided more by emotion. Do you agree with this observation and are you open to the idea that regardless of how rational you may believe you are, you, like me, can easily fall under the influence of intense emotion. I am suggesting that repressed sex energy can be a main cause of herd mentality. Why?

If you are open to the concept of karma, is herd mentality influenced by repressed sex energy related to karmic results?
"Herd mentality, mob mentality and pack mentality, also lesser known as gang mentality, describes how people can be influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors on a largely emotional, rather than rational, basis." Wikipedia

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:25 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:29 pm
...Either way, minds are destroyed but with drugs the process of destruction is less of an annoyance for adults. Seems logical
Perhaps.

You asked if I thought parents would do it, not whether or not I thought it was a good idea. I think it's a bad idea, but yes, I'm quite certain they would do it. They already do, as you note.

Nick_A
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Nick_A » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:51 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:25 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:29 pm
...Either way, minds are destroyed but with drugs the process of destruction is less of an annoyance for adults. Seems logical
Perhaps.

You asked if I thought parents would do it, not whether or not I thought it was a good idea. I think it's a bad idea, but yes, I'm quite certain they would do it. They already do, as you note.
You are familiar with absurdism: "the belief that human beings exist in a purposeless, chaotic universe."

If you consider what society does to the young along with what it does to itself through wars for example it does seem that it is absurd. Yet for those who realize they are asleep in Plato's cave attached to the shadows on the wall, the results have to be absurd.

Once it dawned on me that the universe isn't absurd but only our interpretations that make it appear absurd that the value of Christianity became clear for me. Through the energy of the Holy Spirit a person can be born again and awaken to reality. Then the universe makes sense long with our purpose and place within it.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:16 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:51 pm
You are familiar with absurdism: "the belief that human beings exist in a purposeless, chaotic universe."
There are both sincere and ulterior motives for those who choose to believe this.

However, I don't.

surreptitious57
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Most previous ages of Western history have been nowhere near as promiscuous as our own
Given that promiscuity is not something that is officially recorded you cannot possibly know this
The only thing that you can say with certainty is that it was not something that was as socially acceptable as it is today
But whether there was less of it or whether it was simply more clandestine you cannot say without any actual evidence

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:39 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:16 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:51 pm
You are familiar with absurdism: "the belief that human beings exist in a purposeless, chaotic universe."
There are both sincere and ulterior motives for those who choose to believe this.

However, I don't.
You don't believe that you do, or you don't believe that we do?

First you impose your morality, now you impose your telos onto others?

tsk tsk...

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:14 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:21 am
Given that promiscuity is not something that is officially recorded you cannot possibly know this
It's simply based on "average lifetime partners."

The studies have been done, actually. Here are just three of the many:

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2016/artic ... n-1915.htm
https://www.healthline.com/health/healt ... s#by-state
https://ifstudies.org/blog/nine-decades-of-promiscuity

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:20 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:39 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:16 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:51 pm
You are familiar with absurdism: "the belief that human beings exist in a purposeless, chaotic universe."
There are both sincere and ulterior motives for those who choose to believe this.

However, I don't.
You don't believe that you do, or you don't believe that we do?
I don't believe this. "Believe this" is the grammatical completion of the phrase. But you raise a good point: some people actually believe it; others just say they do, because saying they believe it grants them some other thing they want. That's the "ulterior" part.
First you impose your morality, now you impose your telos onto others?
Of course not. You can't "impose" a telos: either it is or it isn't your telos. Having the wrong sense of telos is in no one's self-interest. Only the realists about that have any advantage.

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:20 pm
Of course not. You can't "impose" a telos: either it is or it isn't your telos. Having the wrong sense of telos is in no one's self-interest. Only the realists about that have any advantage.
Well you can. Just about every philosophical disagreement ever comes down to the is-ought gap.

What you can and cannot say about X.

The telos of philosophy is Normative linguistics.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:38 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:23 pm
Well you can. Just about every philosophical disagreement ever comes down to the is-ought gap.
I don't think you have Aristotelian "telos" in mind. You must have some other idea, but I can't be sure what it is.

Telos is the true, right or absolute purpose for which a thing is created. Things can't have different "teloses." There is only the legitimate telos, and a bunch of misguided ideas about telos. That's why only realists have an advantage.

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:45 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:38 pm
Telos is the true, right or absolute purpose for which a thing is created.
Only you can know the telos for the philosophical arguments you create.

Intent.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:53 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:45 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:38 pm
Telos is the true, right or absolute purpose for which a thing is created.
Only you can know the telos for the philosophical arguments you create.

Intent.
Oh, I see. Not Aristotelian, then. You just mean "intent," not ultimate, absolute telos.

So what was your objection again?

Skepdick
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:53 pm
Oh, I see. Not Aristotelian, then. You just mean "intent," not ultimate, absolute telos.
Exactly Aristotelian.

What is the "True, right ultimate and absolute telos" of your argument?
I am pretty sure that's exactly the same question as "What is the intent of your argument?"

If you think the two questions are asking different things, then explain the difference between the telos of an argument and the intent of an argument.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:24 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:58 pm
I am pretty sure that's exactly the same question as "What is the intent of your argument?"
No. Arguments, per se, don't have a telos. Their design is contingent, and their goals mutable. They have purposes formed in the mind of the framers, they have directions, which may or may not be the stated aims they represent, but there's no ultimate telos for which all arguments qua arguments are destined.

Telos pertains to created objects. In particular, it pertains to human beings themselves, and to the question, "What is a human being for?"

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