Individualism vs. Collectivism

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 1756
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by RCSaunders » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:15 pm
Why would that be? :shock:
Well, don't worry about it. I've explained it as well as I could.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8381
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:15 pm
Why would that be? :shock:
Well, don't worry about it. I've explained it as well as I could.
Well, perhaps. But you really have not explained, RC. When you wrote:

"Some actually are willing for others to use their own minds and come to their own beliefs," you said no more about how that worked out.

I can imagine why. I have to think that really, you didn't mean anything particular by it at all. You only, perhaps, meant to imply that people who don't hold to (what they personally imagine to be) "individual" beliefs (whatever those are -- you don't say) are "not using their own minds," and are not "coming to" authentic or worthwhile "beliefs."

Is that not really all you intended to convey? And perhaps I'm asking too much of you to exposit a line that you really put out there as a sort of throw-away?

Now, obviously the assumptions here are very assailable, since it it obvious that individual thinkers can have very bad beliefs, no matter how original they are; and that all beliefs are instances of "using the mind" for something -- just as you have pointed out that knowledge of any kind is always an instance of "mind use" in the most vague, extended sense.

But perhaps my fault is that I'm dwelling too precisely on a claim you only meant to be rhetorical... :?

So I'm content if you now wish to abandon the claim.

Skepdick
Posts: 4414
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
So I'm content if you now wish to abandon the claim.
Surely such matters are always about negotiations and never about the claims themselves?

For all your philosophical posturing, lip service and burdening of others with "defending their claims" you never seem to abandon your God-claim. Even though you can't defend it.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8381
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:52 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:46 pm
For all your philosophical posturing, lip service and burdening of others with "defending their claims" you never seem to abandon your God-claim. Even though you can't defend it.
Actually, I can and have, in many places throughout this forum. But you're a comparatively recent arrival here, so it's understandable if you haven't been privy to all of that.

What such discussions have shown, though is that no matter how good the evidence is that one produces, an obdurate Atheist is always capable of finding an excuse not to consider it. And so long as they have closed their minds to the evidence, they always feel justified in claiming that they haven't been presented with any.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't recycle old arguments here -- particularly those in which you are likely not to be very interested anyway. Besides, on this particular strand of discussion, it obviously would not be presently salient.

Skepdick
Posts: 4414
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:52 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:46 pm
For all your philosophical posturing, lip service and burdening of others with "defending their claims" you never seem to abandon your God-claim. Even though you can't defend it.
Actually, I can and have, in many places throughout this forum. But you're a comparatively recent arrival here, so it's understandable if you haven't been privy to all of that.

What such discussions have shown, though is that no matter how good the evidence is that one produces, an obdurate Atheist is always capable of finding an excuse not to consider it. And so long as they have closed their minds to the evidence, they always feel justified in claiming that they haven't been presented with any.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't recycle old arguments here -- particularly those in which you are likely not to be very interested anyway. Besides, on this particular strand of discussion, it obviously would not be presently salient.
It's hardly anybody's fault that. you can't produce enough evidence, is it?

So sure. You have tried (and failed) at defending your God-belief. So when are you going to abandon it?

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8381
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:04 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:00 pm
...you can't produce enough evidence...
Exactly what I said.

There's enough evidence. And this site has a search feature, so you could easily find those earlier discussions, which went on at great length, actually.

But you didn't. And I'm pretty certain you won't.

Those who aren't interested in considering any evidence anyway will always insist there's none.

QED.

Skepdick
Posts: 4414
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:04 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:00 pm
...you can't produce enough evidence...
Exactly what I said.
That is not at all what you said. What you said was "What such discussions have shown, though is that no matter how good the evidence is that one produces, an obdurate Atheist is always capable of finding an excuse not to consider it."

I am considering all of your evidence. I question none of its quantity or its quality.

I am simply asserting that it's not enough.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:04 pm
There's enough evidence. But those who aren't interested in considering any evidence anyway will always insist there's none.
That's a strawman. As I have just conceded - you have indeed produced evidence. So nobody (certainly not me anyway) is claiming that there is no evidence.

I am claiming that there is not ENOUGH evidence.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:04 pm
QED.
Much like your evidence falls short, so did your "demonstration".

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8381
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:37 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:14 pm
Much like your evidence falls short, so did your "demonstration".
You may say so...I expected you would.

And, as fascinating, intellectually stimulating and productive as the present conversation is, I'm happy to forgo the pleasure with you on this particular occasion.

Skepdick
Posts: 4414
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:38 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:37 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:14 pm
Much like your evidence falls short, so did your "demonstration".
You may say so...I expected you would.

And, as fascinating, intellectually stimulating and productive as the present conversation is, I'm happy to forgo the pleasure with you on this particular occasion.
Sure, but I was never looking for a conversation. I was only looking for an answer.

Having failed to defend your beliefs, when are you going to abandon them?

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8381
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:50 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:38 pm
Having failed to defend your beliefs...
False. Shown false.

And worse than that, boring.

uwot
Posts: 4884
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by uwot » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:04 pm
There's enough evidence. But those who aren't interested in considering any evidence anyway will always insist there's none.
Mr Can, I don't think anyone familiar with your oeuvre would deny that you have presented a great deal of evidence. And yes, even atheists such as myself would concede that your god hypothesis may in fact be true. The problem is that you haven't presented any piece of evidence for which a 'supreme being' is the best hypothesis, let alone the only plausible hypothesis. Your sloppy argument that "Atheists" are "irrational" is dependent on your insistence that they are making the claim that god does not exist. I agree with you that no such claim can be conclusively demonstrated, but as has been pointed out to you many times, very few people who identify as atheists are making any ontological claim. It could be that god does exist, and you are free to believe it, but you do not know it in any way that you have managed to share.
C- Must try harder.

User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 1756
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by RCSaunders » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
"Some actually are willing for others to use their own minds and come to their own beliefs," you said no more about how that worked out.
I made the mistake of thinking you knew how someone used their mind to learn, reason and choose. I obviously made a mistake.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
I can imagine why. I have to think that really, you didn't mean anything particular by it at all.
What do you mean you, "have to think." How can I know what that means when, "you said no more about how that works?" [See how stupid that argument is.] What did you use to do that thinking if it was not your mind? It was your mind and you know perfectly well how one uses it. Why pretend you don't.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
You only, perhaps, meant to imply that people who don't hold to (what they personally imagine to be) "individual" beliefs (whatever those are -- you don't say) are "not using their own minds," and are not "coming to" authentic or worthwhile "beliefs."
No, I did not imply anything at all. I said explicitly what I meant and any sixth grader would have understood it perfectly.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
Now, obviously the assumptions here are very assailable, since it it obvious that individual thinkers can have very bad beliefs, no matter how original they are; and that all beliefs are instances of "using the mind" for something -- just as you have pointed out that knowledge of any kind is always an instance of "mind use" in the most vague, extended sense.
Well, you almost have it. Whatever anyone believes, whether it's correct or not, the only faculty they have for thinking, however well or poorly they do it, is their mind.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
But perhaps my fault is that I'm dwelling too precisely on a claim you only meant to be rhetorical... :?

So I'm content if you now wish to abandon the claim.
What claim? That people have minds? You want me to abandon the claim people have minds? Or is it,"if people think it is their minds that do that thinking," that Is the claim you want me to abandon? Or is it, "what people believe is determined by what they choose to think," the claim you want me to abandon?

Those aren't claims. They are statements of fact.

If it makes you content, just forget whatever it is you think I'm claiming. You don't have to agree with me. I certainly don't need you to agree with me to be content.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 8381
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:53 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
"Some actually are willing for others to use their own minds and come to their own beliefs," you said no more about how that worked out.
I made the mistake of thinking you knew how someone used their mind to learn, reason and choose. I obviously made a mistake.
Yes, that's true. You didn't consider that a person can "learn," "reason" and "choose" bad things. But as I said, I won't hold you to something you didn't mean to say.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
I can imagine why. I have to think that really, you didn't mean anything particular by it at all.
What do you mean you, "have to think."
I "have to think" it because you can't explain it. It's the most obvious explanation when someone says they didn't mean anything by what they said.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:33 pm
You only, perhaps, meant to imply that people who don't hold to (what they personally imagine to be) "individual" beliefs (whatever those are -- you don't say) are "not using their own minds," and are not "coming to" authentic or worthwhile "beliefs."
No, I did not imply anything at all.
A sentence that "implies nothing" means one that has no intention behind it, and no particular meaning. I'm pretty sure that's not what you're wanting to say here. But if it is, correct me.
Whatever anyone believes, whether it's correct or not, the only faculty they have for thinking, however well or poorly they do it, is their mind.
Yes, that's true, if rather obvious. So the mere fact of "using their minds" will not help anyone to know that their beliefs are good or true. Bad beliefs are also created by "using their minds."
If it makes you content, just forget whatever it is you think I'm claiming.
Well, as you wish, then.

I regret your frustration. I honestly have no idea what point you were making when you said "Some actually are willing for others to use their own minds and come to their own beliefs."

As we now seemingly agree, that's equally a description of true and false beliefs, of good and bad ones.

Skepdick
Posts: 4414
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Skepdick » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:57 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:50 pm
False. Shown false.

And worse than that, boring.
Well, you know - if this was just about amusement, fine. But in your very own words....
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:15 pm
For it is equally clear that other people "use" their "minds" to come to very bad or foolish beliefs.
Your mind is a paragon for a mind that has come to very bad or foolish beliefs.

It only seems fair that we should study you and learn from your mistakes.

IvoryBlackBishop
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:55 pm

Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by IvoryBlackBishop » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:24 pm

I consider this a false dilemma and not relevant to the philosophy of the law to begin with.

The law acknowledges individual sovereignty, such rights, property and what not; likewise, at the bare minimum level of civil and criminal law, the law imposes a minimum of "conformity" and respect for others under the same law (e.x. one's individual rights and sovereignty are protected by the law, much as the law also requires the individual to acknowledge the rights of the "group" or other "groups", or everyone under the same body of law, or face punishment).

So this is really just another false dichotomy, using pointlessly ambiguous definitions to begin with; (obviously, for example there is no one "group" to begin with, there is the law of a state or nation, which presumably every citizen or resident is under and required to "conform to", much as there are also private groups, whether families, businesses, churches, governmental organizations such as military, law enforcement, courts, and so on.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests