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Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:54 pm
by commonsense
Some would say that aesthetics and ethics are simply two different means to the same end: a fulfilled life, rich with beauty and good deeds.
Just examine the many adjectives that are used to describe good/bad art, music, dance, theater etc.vv. good/bad ethics, e.g.: gratifying/displeasing, meaningful /bizarre, warm/cold, enlightened/dark, et al.
Not to say that good art is the same as good acts, but one might conclude that if immoral behavior consists of distasteful works, then at least ugliness is akin to poor ethics.
In that sense, a lack of beauty in life, as well as an inadequate system of morals, cannot lead to deep satisfaction nor altruistic rewards in life.
If aesthetics and ethics are at all similar in any way at all, then which has the greater value for living the good life?
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:34 am
by -1-
commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:54 pm
If aesthetics and ethics are at all similar in any way at all, then which has the greater value for living the good life?
I would say either one, or the other.
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:04 pm
by commonsense
-1- wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:34 am
commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:54 pm
If aesthetics and ethics are at all similar in any way at all, then which has the greater value for living the good life?
I would say either one, or the other.
They are of equal value then? The qualia of hearing Beethoven’s fifth symphony is equal in value to that of feeding a homeless person? What makes it so?
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:26 pm
by Skepdick
commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:04 pm
They are of equal value then? The qualia of hearing Beethoven’s fifth symphony is equal in value to that of feeding a homeless person? What makes it so?
The only way economists have been able to answer this question is via the concept of
revealed preference. Measuring what people would choose - ceteris paribus.
Give a bunch of people $10 and ask them to spend it.
Button 1: Plays Beethoven (self-gratification)
Button 2: Feeds a homeless person (altruism)
Would you like to bet which way most people would go?
It's also why some people say that money is the currency of caring. People spend time/money on what they care about.
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:13 pm
by -1-
commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:04 pm
-1- wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:34 am
commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:54 pm
If aesthetics and ethics are at all similar in any way at all, then which has the greater value for living the good life?
I would say either one, or the other.
They are of equal value then? The qualia of hearing Beethoven’s fifth symphony is equal in value to that of feeding a homeless person? What makes it so?
I did not fucking say they are equal value, you fucking moron. I said either one is of more value, or the other fucking thing is of more value.
If you are so stupid, what the fuck are you doing on a fucking philosophy website?
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:29 pm
by Nick_A
-1- wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:13 pm
commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:04 pm
-1- wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:34 am
I would say either one, or the other.
They are of equal value then? The qualia of hearing Beethoven’s fifth symphony is equal in value to that of feeding a homeless person? What makes it so?
I did not fucking say they are equal value, you fucking moron. I said either one is of more value, or the other fucking thing is of more value.
If you are so stupid, what the fuck are you doing on a fucking philosophy website?
Raising the philosophical question what it is about the process of fucking that gives qualia its value? Is it aesthetic appreciation to watch phenomenon fucking? Does a fucking philosophy website that sucks have more value than one that is just fucking? Is sucking less or more valuable than fucking for leading the good life? Food for thought.
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:36 am
by gaffo
commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:54 pm
Some would say that aesthetics and ethics are simply two different means to the same end: a fulfilled life, rich with beauty and good deeds.
Just examine the many adjectives that are used to describe good/bad art, music, dance, theater etc.vv. good/bad ethics, e.g.: gratifying/displeasing, meaningful /bizarre, warm/cold, enlightened/dark, et al.
Not to say that good art is the same as good acts, but one might conclude that if immoral behavior consists of distasteful works, then at least ugliness is akin to poor ethics.
In that sense, a lack of beauty in life, as well as an inadequate system of morals, cannot lead to deep satisfaction nor altruistic rewards in life.
If aesthetics and ethics are at all similar in any way at all, then which has the greater value for living the good life?
ethics is more important than aesthetics, and i do not see a link either.
for i have a book of Nazi propaganda posters - the artwork is excellent - but the concepts behind the artwork of course is not.
i also like disscordant music - prokofiev's 4th is a personal fav - as is Hindemith's Mathis der Maller, both works are mostly disscordant/minor keys - very unsettling, not "happy" (opposite of Prok's 1st symphony - which is good also in a "purdy" way).
is discordant music unaesthetic or even unethical?
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:39 am
by gaffo
-1- wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:13 pm
commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:04 pm
-1- wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:34 am
I would say either one, or the other.
They are of equal value then? The qualia of hearing Beethoven’s fifth symphony is equal in value to that of feeding a homeless person? What makes it so?
I did not fucking say they are equal value, you fucking moron. I said either one is of more value, or the other fucking thing is of more value.
If you are so stupid, what the fuck are you doing on a fucking philosophy website?
lol, you have a bad day? no worries tomorrow will be better Sir. have faith!
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:47 pm
by commonsense
If either of the two is able to be of greater value, they may be equivocal. No one has said they are not so.
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 pm
by commonsense
gaffo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:36 am
is discordant music unaesthetic or even unethical?
By my initial thinking, yes.
We need a better heuristic than what I have implied. Do you think this discussion would hold more weight if I were to say that judgments, such as those concerning discordant music, are individualized?
Would that help?
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:25 pm
by Nick_A
commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 pm
gaffo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:36 am
is discordant music unaesthetic or even unethical?
By my initial thinking, yes.
We need a better heuristic than what I have implied. Do you think this discussion would hold more weight if I were to say that judgments, such as those concerning discordant music, are individualized?
Would that help?
The first thing you have to do IMO is to explain how you define the concept of "value." There is a scale of objective value that begins with the source of creation and defines value by its closeness with our source within the scale of creation. Subjective value is defined by our emotions so cannot have an objective scale of value. Subjective values are our own creation while objective values are a universal constant.
An abortion of convenience can be more ethical by a subjective standard than a helping hand because of the definition of a helping hand. So why not begin by telling us if your question refers to an objective or subjective appreciation of "value."
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:06 pm
by commonsense
Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:25 pm
So why not begin by telling us if your question refers to an objective or subjective appreciation of "value."
I’ll tell you this: regardless whegther value is conceded to be objective or subjective,
more value is greater than value. Why don’t you start a fresh thread relevant to value?
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:54 pm
by Nick_A
commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:06 pm
Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:25 pm
So why not begin by telling us if your question refers to an objective or subjective appreciation of "value."
I’ll tell you this: regardless whegther value is conceded to be objective or subjective,
more value is greater than value. Why don’t you start a fresh thread relevant to value?
I've tried this before and it was unanimously concluded by the dominant secular influence that there is no objective source so there are no objective values. We create our own reality and scale of values. Subjective values are a created fantasy without objective worth. They have zero objective value and limited to invented temporary subjective opinions.
You've introduced the modern idea that more zero is greater than zero. Being old fashioned I still don't buy it regardless of popular political support. But stick with it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:02 am
by gaffo
commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 pm
gaffo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:36 am
is discordant music unaesthetic or even unethical?
By my initial thinking, yes.
We need a better heuristic than what I have implied. Do you think this discussion would hold more weight if I were to say that judgments, such as those concerning discordant music, are individualized?
Would that help?
thanks for reply, no i do not think so because i personally find no link to music - good or bad. major keys or minor - as having any link to morality.
I think your whole premise is wrong.
just my opinion, welcome more discussion on the matter - for me to reply or ignore - lol.
Re: Is it aesthetic or is it ethical?
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:51 pm
by commonsense
gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:02 am
commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 pm
gaffo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:36 am
is discordant music unaesthetic or even unethical?
By my initial thinking, yes.
We need a better heuristic than what I have implied. Do you think this discussion would hold more weight if I were to say that judgments, such as those concerning discordant music, are individualized?
Would that help?
thanks for reply, no i do not think so because i personally find no link to music - good or bad. major keys or minor - as having any link to morality.
I think your whole premise is wrong.
just my opinion, welcome more discussion on the matter - for me to reply or ignore - lol.
I really meant the OP as an open question, and then I probed further just to explore the topic. I agree with you completely now.