Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

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Dontaskme
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Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:36 am

As philosophers we've probably all heard of the phrase '' The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao'' OR ''The Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way''

So why DO all these Non-dual teachers and preachers of today and yesterday attempt to speak it to others..?

Is there any authority here in reality that can confidently claim to have metaphysical knowledge and to speak of such knowledge to others as if it was absolute truth that CAN actually be KNOWN?

Or is it all just some human scam operating as a con to con others into moving away from their own belief structures by announcing there is no such thing as belief structures while at the same time selling their own belief to you...kind of like replacing one illusion with another.

What are the motives or incentives of teachers / preachers who speak about the nondual nature of existence to others? when it clearly cannot be spoken about.

Any thoughts about that?

I Like Sushu
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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by I Like Sushu » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 am

I’m not really sure “mysticism” is the same thing as “metaphysics”?

I believe that ‘metaphysics’, broadly speaking, deals with the limits of physicalism rather than being merely a mystical discipline?

In academic circles generally the issue is about ontology and epistemology - and there are further extrapolations within those that coincide with physicalism and such.

In simplistic terms I guess we’ve got the “ontological” dealing with being, what being means and what existing and what exist means ... whilst “epistemology” deals with meaning, application of meaning and categories knowledge - including various definitions and practical application.

There is certainly a lot of cross-over between these two split fields of metaphysics.

Note: I’m not disregarding mysticism here as I find it useful as a creative means to unearth the ‘obvious’ and reveal the absurdities of language, life and why the hell I am bothering to type this at all!

Anyway, knowing five stupid answers to a question is better than knowing no possible answers at all ... or is it? Der de de der! :D

I do get annoyed when religiously minded types deplore science and call it nonsensical, then the next minute claim their holy book gave proof prior to scientific experimentation - when anyone uses ‘evidence’ to back up their claim and ignores all the opposing ‘evidence’ it is a good idea to calming point this out rather than bringing the hammer down.

If any of us are going to try to educate anyone about anything we have to be open to accepting our own errors (and none of us are perfect to do so on every occasion!). If you have bad judgement then I’ve no idea what can be done. Tread with caution I guess? In the end we’re all obliged to live and die by the sword we fashion so just attend to that and keep breathing I guess? Haha!

In further defense of the ‘mystic’ I’d say they’ve obviously had a certain ‘peak’ experience of sorts. Listen and watch what they say, but I wouldn’t necessarily take anyone’s word as sacred above all others - dogma can be quite a sneaking little beast!

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Dontaskme
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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:40 am

Thanks (I Like Sushu) for the reply..I will be back later with my response.

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Age
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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by Age » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:09 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:36 am
As philosophers we've probably all heard of the phrase '' The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao'' OR ''The Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way''

So why DO all these Non-dual teachers and preachers of today and yesterday attempt to speak it to others..?
Because they are false tales.

Just because some thing has not yet been formulated into words does not mean that it can not be told nor can be spoken of.

Finding the right words/language just takes some time.

In the meantime people will try/attempt to speak with the words/knowledge that they currently possess.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:36 am
Is there any authority here in reality that can confidently claim to have metaphysical knowledge and to speak of such knowledge to others as if it was absolute truth that CAN actually be KNOWN?
Yes there is an actual authority that can do this, but this also depends on exactly what the word 'metaphysical' is being defined as here.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:36 am
Or is it all just some human scam operating as a con to con others into moving away from their own belief structures by announcing there is no such thing as belief structures while at the same time selling their own belief to you...kind of like replacing one illusion with another.
Do you have any examples of this happening?

With examples, then we can look at them and discuss.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:36 am
What are the motives or incentives of teachers / preachers who speak about the nondual nature of existence to others?
Because there is A Truth within all, which wants to come out/be heard, but unfortunately IT gets distorted along the way, through all the false beliefs and assumptions, which the speaker/teacher/preacher is holding onto.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:36 am
when it clearly cannot be spoken about.
Where is this belief that "it clearly cannot be spoken about" come from?
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:36 am
Any thoughts about that?
Yes, find out if things are actual facts before believing and/or expressing as though they are.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by Belinda » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:43 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Is there any authority here in reality that can confidently claim to have metaphysical knowledge and to speak of such knowledge to others as if it was absolute truth that CAN actually be KNOWN?
Everyone knows from from their first hand experience what it's like to live with Yin and Yang. Nobody knows the Way.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by jayjacobus » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:33 am

Belinda wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:43 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Is there any authority here in reality that can confidently claim to have metaphysical knowledge and to speak of such knowledge to others as if it was absolute truth that CAN actually be KNOWN?
Everyone knows from from their first hand experience what it's like to live with Yin and Yang. Nobody knows the Way.
Okay. No one has a solution yet but we all keep trying.

Sooner or later the chit-chat between philosophers will get serious.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by PeteJ » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:47 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:36 am
As philosophers we've probably all heard of the phrase '' The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao'' OR ''The Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way''

So why DO all these Non-dual teachers and preachers of today and yesterday attempt to speak it to others..?
Don't forget that Lao Tsu doesn't just say 'The Tao cannot be spoken', but also says 'The Tao must be spoken'. There is no difficulty in teaching metaphysics to others, but there is a point beyond which logical analysis cannot go. It runs out of steam where we must go, as de Cusa puts it, 'beyond the coincidence of contradictories'. But it's easy enough to teach up to this point, and the Tao can be talked if we're careful to remember the limitations of language and logic.
Is there any authority here in reality that can confidently claim to have metaphysical knowledge and to speak of such knowledge to others as if it was absolute truth that CAN actually be KNOWN?
Countless numbers of them. I expect there are some who at least come close to qualifying on this forum. Non-duality is the reason such knowledge is possible. Such teachers are all over youtube. Osho, Rupert Spira, Sadhguru, Mooji and others, they all claim to know, and they all teach the same message. They teach that the ultimate nature of Reality is beyond conceptual fabrication, as does Lao Tsu, but once we get the hang of this idea all the rest an be discussed and debated. But to go beyond conceptual fabrication and know the truth about Reality would be an inner journey to places beyond the reach of words, dialectical logic and the categories of thought.
Or is it all just some human scam operating as a con to con others into moving away from their own belief structures by announcing there is no such thing as belief structures while at the same time selling their own belief to you...kind of like replacing one illusion with another.

Oh no. If you study what they're saying you'll soon realise this is not the case. if you keep going then eventually you'll know what they know. They are NOT asking you to believe but to learn.
What are the motives or incentives of teachers / preachers who speak about the nondual nature of existence to others? when it clearly cannot be spoken about.
It can be spoken about and we're doing it now. The motive would usually be to help others bring an end to suffering. Of course, most also need to earn some sort of living. When you hear a great piece of music are you not tempted to share it?

The non-dual doctrine is mightily confusing until one gets the hang of it so your sceptical questions make good sense. But the whole message is that you'll never know the answers unless you study the subject and do the work. It's not rocket-science but it's conceptually and ideologically challenging.

It''s not necessary to 'go native' and start a meditative practice in order to study the metaphysics of non-duality and see how it works, but Lao Tsu is right in the end, The eternal Tao, the Tao we cannot imagine, has to be encountered directly for any meaningful understanding. The subject-object distinction must be seen to be conceptual, not fundamental.

To go this far is a relatively common achievement. Schopenhauer talks about his 'better consciousness', which is his experience of being beyond the subject-object distinction. This experience (or perhaps non-experience) cannot be conveyed to others, but the metaphysics that comes out of this knowledge of Reality may easily be discussed and assessed. Non-duality requires a neutral metaphysical position or theory and this may be discussed like any other. We could start now if you like.

Some of your posts elsewhere make me wonder if your questions here are rhetorical. If they aren't I'm happy to discuss at any length the metaphysics of non-duality. It's my specialist hobby.

jayjacobus
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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by jayjacobus » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:26 pm

Think Tank - I worked in a profession once and the members sometimes worked together.

At other times they were their worst critics.

Age
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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by Age » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:58 am

jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:33 am
Belinda wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:43 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Is there any authority here in reality that can confidently claim to have metaphysical knowledge and to speak of such knowledge to others as if it was absolute truth that CAN actually be KNOWN?
Everyone knows from from their first hand experience what it's like to live with Yin and Yang. Nobody knows the Way.
Okay. No one has a solution yet but we all keep trying.
Where does this, (obviously absolutely wrong), BELIEF about "no one has a solution yet" come from? (I ask this already knowing what the answer is.)

I ask so, hopefully, some of you may just ponder over it. (Disregard the 'absolutely wrong' part if you so wish.)

Just think about any belief you have, which you then transfer onto absolutely EVERY other human being, and then consider why you do this, as well as maintain that belief?

Are you adult human beings so self-centered that you actually believe that just because you do not know of some thing yet, then "no one else could possibly know of it yet as well"?

Or, do you believe that just because you have not yet heard of a solution, then no one else has written one down yet, or that no one has even devised/come up with a solution yet but is just taking their time to put it into understandable words, so then that must mean "no one has a solution yet"?

Seriously, where does such a belief like that one, which obviously could be so totally and completely wrong, actually come from?

More importantly, why do you so strongly hold onto absolutely distorted beliefs like that one?

Are you just repeating what you hear from others because it just sounds like it is true.

Look at the assumptions/beliefs again. "Nobody knows the Way" and "No one has a solution yet". Unless 'you' know the thoughts within absolutely EVERY human body, then how would you even know? How could you know? Why do you believe and repeat some thing, which could be so completely wrong?
jayjacobus wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:33 am
Sooner or later the chit-chat between philosophers will get serious.
Hopefully very, very soon.

The "chit-chat" starts getting really serious when people stop expressing their opinions, beliefs, and/or assumptions, as though they are true, and start considering WHY they think the way they do. Then the answers, which people are looking for, start coming to light, very quickly and simply.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:33 am

I Like Sushu wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 am
I’m not really sure “mysticism” is the same thing as “metaphysics”?
Same point, different word probably.
I Like Sushu wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 am
I believe that ‘metaphysics’, broadly speaking, deals with the limits of physicalism rather than being merely a mystical discipline?
Then again only possible because of mentation, which is a fictional overlay upon what is already here in total unknowing known silence.

I Like Sushu wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 am
In simplistic terms I guess we’ve got the “ontological” dealing with being, what being means and what existing and what exist means ... whilst “epistemology” deals with meaning, application of meaning and categories knowledge - including various definitions and practical application.

There is certainly a lot of cross-over between these two split fields of metaphysics.
No matter, for all descriptions of what is ineffable are but fictional pointings to the origin of all fiction which is nothingness.
I Like Sushu wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 am
Note: I’m not disregarding mysticism here as I find it useful as a creative means to unearth the ‘obvious’ and reveal the absurdities of language, life and why the hell I am bothering to type this at all!
The notion of no 'self' is absurd, in the same sense doing is done but no doer thereof is absurd..but as the saying goes 'it is what it is' and that nothing is in control, there's just what's spontaneously appearing straight out of the void...nothing starting it, nothing stopping it.


I Like Sushu wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 am
I do get annoyed when religiously minded types deplore science and call it nonsensical, then the next minute claim their holy book gave proof prior to scientific experimentation - when anyone uses ‘evidence’ to back up their claim and ignores all the opposing ‘evidence’ it is a good idea to calming point this out rather than bringing the hammer down.
Science and Religion are both in agreement that reality is nondual, but how they approach that understanding may differ that's all. The destination is the same although paths are many. Ultimately where there is a sense of 'self' is the begining of each journey ..the journey of discovery. And yet to discover is only uncovering what is already here all along...so in my opinion, teaching 'others' what they already know is like selling water by a river.
I personally don't agree with the whole money issue that's involved...for me personally, this is not for sale. But it is what it is I suppose, so nothing really wrong with that either, it's just how the human mind works, it works in the ''YOU owe me'' selfish sense.

I Like Sushu wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 am

In further defense of the ‘mystic’ I’d say they’ve obviously had a certain ‘peak’ experience of sorts. Listen and watch what they say, but I wouldn’t necessarily take anyone’s word as sacred above all others - dogma can be quite a sneaking little beast!
The problem is how do we point to the source of 'self' without using concepts? ..so concepts become the only known reality here...concepts are nought but blank fillers...aka dogma..to know you know is a fictional lie...knowing you know nothing is more the truth as in tacit knowing.

My problem with the nonduality teachers is when they call a so called follower of their teaching a bigot just for having their own unique informed opposing opinion. For me,this is corrupt teaching,it carries the heavy weight of a cult like mentality, and when this happens, which it does, it makes me distrust the motives and real incentives of these teachers.

.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by PeteJ » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:56 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:33 am
My problem with the nonduality teachers is when they call a so called follower of their teaching a bigot just for having their own unique informed opposing opinion. For me,this is corrupt teaching,it carries the heavy weight of a cult like mentality, and when this happens, which it does, it makes me distrust the motives and real incentives of these teachers.
So you think they should accept any old opinion as equally valid, even where they know the opinion is wrong. What sort of teacher would do this?

I doubt any of them would call someone a bigot. They may well call them dogmatic or over-reliant on speculative opinions.

If you have an opposing opinion then you do not endorse what they are 6eaching. It's no good complaining they don't teach what you happen to believe is true. They can ony teach what they know is true. If you don't buy it this is not their problem. No offense intended, but to impune their motives on this basis may say more about you than them.

If you don't find the non-dual doctrine convincing then you have plenty of company. No need to malign those who teach it, and by implication all those who endorse it. The best thing to so would be to attempt to falsify it. It is unfasifiable, but there is a great deal to be learnt by trying to prove otherwise.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by PeteJ » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:22 pm

Age wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:58 am
Where does this, (obviously absolutely wrong), BELIEF about "no one has a solution yet" come from?
This is a question I ask myself nearly every day. It's a feature of the Western world-view. I fight abainst it constantly but the pessimism is so entrenched it's difficult to make any headway. I blame the professors, who even today in our information age continue to transmit their poor scholarship down the generations.

I'm rather amazed to note that on a forum for readers of a philosophy journal there is some confusion over the difference between metaphysicis and mysticism. Even just a visit to Wiki should sort this out.

I don't blame any individual for their views, unless they are simply dogmatic. Philosophy is taught so poorly in our society the whole thing is one big muddle nobody could hope to understand.

But we cannot extrapolate from this muddle to the idea that nobody can understand philosophy. We'd have to study the whole of philosophy with some care to verify this, and it would require an good understanding of the claims of mysticism and the logic of metaphysics.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:45 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:56 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:33 am
My problem with the nonduality teachers is when they call a so called follower of their teaching a bigot just for having their own unique informed opposing opinion. For me,this is corrupt teaching,it carries the heavy weight of a cult like mentality, and when this happens, which it does, it makes me distrust the motives and real incentives of these teachers.
So you think they should accept any old opinion as equally valid, even where they know the opinion is wrong. What sort of teacher would do this?
Are you serious! All opinions are equally valid, because all opinions are fictions.
Do you honestly believe in your own made-up bullshit here? on what or who's authority can a nonduality teacher tell another person their opinion is wrong?... get a grip!! ...if a teacher does tell another they are a bigot for having their own opinion that goes against what they are teaching, contradicting that teaching ..then they are hopelessly deluded. I'm not talking about dismissing the teaching, I'm talking about the idea that nonduality understanding can be taught at all...it cannot, it's bullshit to believe it can, so calling the teacher out on their own bullshit is what this topic is about.

True nondual understanding is to know that all opinions are based on knowledge and that knowledge informs the illusory nature of reality, in that it is absent of a knower. So any claim to say an opinion is wrong is just being a bullshitter...it is being closed minded because no opinion is either right or wrong and that all opinions are seen for what they really are, aka fictional assumptions arising from the void and not from a human beings opinion. . which is either in favor of or against...which is more bullshit opinion. Teachers have an air of authority about them and hate being called out on their own fictionally created bullshit, it's like they can dish it out - but they can't take it themselves.
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:56 am
I doubt any of them would call someone a bigot. They may well call them dogmatic or over-reliant on speculative opinions.
Well let me assure you a nonduality teacher will and can call someone a bigot. I witnessed this action myself. You have no grounds to doubt that truth, so doubt it all you like, the point is, your doubt is just your own bullshit opinion.
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:56 am
If you have an opposing opinion then you do not endorse what they are teaching.
Opinions are many and can make all kinds of claims about anything and everything under the sun...endorsing opinioned claims is not what nonduality stands for..nonduality is the understanding that does away with all endorsed claims and opinions - it is to know that any endorsed claim is just a fictional utterance anyway, and that it too is a fictional appearance arising from the void.

But as soon as a teacher starts throwing their authoritative weight around by calling others bigots, is in my opinion not the way to teach nonduality.
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:56 am
It's no good complaining they don't teach what you happen to believe is true. They can ony teach what they know is true. If you don't buy it this is not their problem. No offense intended, but to impune their motives on this basis may say more about you than them.
You misunderstand...I'm saying no one knows anything...that's the whole message of nonduality, but then when a teacher makes the claim to KNOW and then gets called out on that false claim by having it pointed out to them that the claim is just their assumed opinion as well, they don't like that.
So it is their problem as well.
PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:56 am
If you don't find the non-dual doctrine convincing then you have plenty of company. No need to malign those who teach it, and by implication all those who endorse it. The best thing to so would be to attempt to falsify it. It is unfasifiable, but there is a great deal to be learnt by trying to prove otherwise.
You really are missing the point here, and no fault of your own for it's all just your own projected misinterpreted opinions on what you think is actually being discussed here.

Your voicing some really weird misunderstandings as to the actual point of what this thread topic is all about.

No mention here of not being convinced of nondual understanding..you certainly are doing a lot of projecting here...my opinion is that nondual understanding is not something to be taught to another. I'm certainly not saying nondual understanding is not convincing...Neither do I care about your own bullshitting self afforded maligned misguided knee jerk assumptive projections of what you only think I mean... but don't.

Anyone can have a nondual understanding, but it cannot be taught to another person.
I'm not talking about falsifying it, or not being convinced by it as you imply...I'm talking about the fictional mind games that come with the (teacher student dymanic)..in trying to express the ineffable. I'm talking about the inevitable clash of assumptive opinions that can arise in the way nonduality is understood.

As soon as one starts putting nonduality into words you are going to get all sorts of mixed opinions creeping in...all fictional, neither right nor wrong, in the sense that no human being alive has any authority over what constitutes actual nondual knowledge ..simply because there isn't any.
Knowledge informs the illusory nature of a knower. So any teacher informing another person they are not enlightened yet because they say so is absolute bullshit.

When teachers try to convince you they can teach this stuff, and worse, they then try and sell it to you in the hope you will buy it...when in reality it's not for sale is the sickness of the human mind.



.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by PeteJ » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:10 pm

Well, I can now see why you may have encountered the word ''bigot' on your travels.

I was looking forward to an interesting discussion. Oh well.

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Re: Is it ok to teach other people metaphysics?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:50 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:10 pm
Well, I can now see why you may have encountered the word ''bigot' on your travels.

I was looking forward to an interesting discussion. Oh well.
Discussions based on expectation are bound to disappoint due to there being a demand for preferences...and that's the dual nature of the conceptual mind...in that it's inevitably in opposition with the reality of it's nondual and dual self...albeit the same self.


Sorry to disappoint but the problem always lies with expectation, and so when that problem arises here, then there's every chance your not always going to get what you want to hear or prefer...but who are we actually talking to here when discussing nonduality? ...one cannot con a con.

Oh well.

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