All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

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A_Seagull
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by A_Seagull »

Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:35 pm We have not a clue as to what is subjective experience. Maybe it is a sort of impersonal consciousness, possibly stretching across the entire universe, and experiencing and thereby knowing the thoughts as they arise in brains. OK, possible, but nobody actually knows it's true or knows it's false.EB
Why do you use words like 'we' and 'nobody' in a forum like this? Do you consider yourself some sort of authority on these topics? Because you certainly don't give me that impression.

You just seem to be regurgitating other peoples ideas without any understanding or original thought. You deny that knowledge requires assumptions and yet you make reference to Russell and Descartes to allow them to make the assumptions for you.

One doesn't so much know pain as one experiences pain.. in much the same way that a starfish experiences pain.

And as for knowledge.. it has to start with an assumption.. or at least a process.. otherwise it is pure fantasy.
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by Logik »

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts --R.Feynman
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Speakpigeon
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by Speakpigeon »

A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am
Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:35 pm We have not a clue as to what is subjective experience. Maybe it is a sort of impersonal consciousness, possibly stretching across the entire universe, and experiencing and thereby knowing the thoughts as they arise in brains. OK, possible, but nobody actually knows it's true or knows it's false.
Why do you use words like 'we' and 'nobody' in a forum like this? Do you consider yourself some sort of authority on these topics? Because you certainly don't give me that impression.
If you think I'm wrong, then tell us what is subjective experience or what you think you know about it beyond the fact that you have it.
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am You just seem to be regurgitating other peoples ideas without any understanding or original thought.

???
You're making unfounded assumptions. You should be ashamed of yourself.
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am You deny that knowledge requires assumptions
Whoa.
This proves you failed to understand what I said. I suggest you read it again a couple of times.
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am and yet you make reference to Russell and Descartes to allow them to make the assumptions for you.
???
Where is it I justify what I say by Russell's or Descartes' pronouncements? Please quote me.
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am One doesn't so much know pain as one experiences pain..

"One doesn't so much know pain"?!
So, do we or do we not?
OK, so suppose you go into surgery and the surgeon starts cutting into your flesh without anaesthetics. You tell him you're in pain. He replies, "You don't know that" and keeps cutting the bits he doesn't like. See?
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am in much the same way that a starfish experiences pain.
May be, may be not. You see, that's precisely something we don't know. And that's where the difference is. You know pain whenever you are in pain because you indeed experience pain subjectively. Nobody else will know you're in pain. You're the only one to know you're in pain. See? Experience is knowledge. You know what you experience and, perhaps unfortunately, nothing else.
Unless you could now articulate how you could possibly know something you don't experience subjectively. Other people have tried that. Not pretty.
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am And as for knowledge.. it has to start with an assumption.. or at least a process.. otherwise it is pure fantasy.
So, let me get this right: You assume A, and then, somehow, you know B... That seems like a cheap magic trick to me. Could you elaborate at all?
I wish you could.
EB
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A_Seagull
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by A_Seagull »

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:42 am
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am
Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:35 pm We have not a clue as to what is subjective experience. Maybe it is a sort of impersonal consciousness, possibly stretching across the entire universe, and experiencing and thereby knowing the thoughts as they arise in brains. OK, possible, but nobody actually knows it's true or knows it's false.
Why do you use words like 'we' and 'nobody' in a forum like this? Do you consider yourself some sort of authority on these topics? Because you certainly don't give me that impression.
If you think I'm wrong, then tell us what is subjective experience or what you think you know about it beyond the fact that you have it.

Why don't you answer the questions rather than dodging them? And I don't do requests.

A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am You just seem to be regurgitating other peoples ideas without any understanding or original thought.

???
You're making unfounded assumptions. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I am not making any assumptions.. I am making a comment...
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am You deny that knowledge requires assumptions
Whoa.
This proves you failed to understand what I said. I suggest you read it again a couple of times.

THis is what you said :" I know some things. No assumption there. Just knowledge" ...... try reading back what you write1!
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am and yet you make reference to Russell and Descartes to allow them to make the assumptions for you.
???
Where is it I justify what I say by Russell's or Descartes' pronouncements? Please quote me.

Again .. try reading what you wrote
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am One doesn't so much know pain as one experiences pain..

"One doesn't so much know pain"?!
So, do we or do we not?
OK, so suppose you go into surgery and the surgeon starts cutting into your flesh without anaesthetics. You tell him you're in pain. He replies, "You don't know that" and keeps cutting the bits he doesn't like. See?

THat is an absurd hypothetical
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am in much the same way that a starfish experiences pain.
May be, may be not. You see, that's precisely something we don't know. And that's where the difference is. You know pain whenever you are in pain because you indeed experience pain subjectively. Nobody else will know you're in pain. You're the only one to know you're in pain. See? Experience is knowledge. You know what you experience and, perhaps unfortunately, nothing else.
Unless you could now articulate how you could possibly know something you don't experience subjectively. Other people have tried that. Not pretty.
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am And as for knowledge.. it has to start with an assumption.. or at least a process.. otherwise it is pure fantasy.
So, let me get this right: You assume A, and then, somehow, you know B... That seems like a cheap magic trick to me. Could you elaborate at all?
I wish you could.

Yes I could.. but I am not going to.. This is a forum not a lecture theatre.
EB
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Speakpigeon
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by Speakpigeon »

A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:34 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:42 am
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am And as for knowledge.. it has to start with an assumption.. or at least a process.. otherwise it is pure fantasy.
So, let me get this right: You assume A, and then, somehow, you know B... That seems like a cheap magic trick to me. Could you elaborate at all?
I wish you could.
Yes I could.. but I am not going to.. This is a forum not a lecture theatre.
QED.

So, let's go back a little... What did you say exactly?
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am Why do you use words like 'we' and 'nobody' in a forum like this? Do you consider yourself some sort of authority on these topics? Because you certainly don't give me that impression.
Well, you had the opportunity to flesh out your "impression" and you backed down.
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am You just seem to be regurgitating other peoples ideas without any understanding or original thought. You deny that knowledge requires assumptions and yet you make reference to Russell and Descartes to allow them to make the assumptions for you.
At least I'm prepared to argue my claim. You're not.
EB
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A_Seagull
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by A_Seagull »

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:59 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:34 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:42 am
So, let me get this right: You assume A, and then, somehow, you know B... That seems like a cheap magic trick to me. Could you elaborate at all?
I wish you could.
Yes I could.. but I am not going to.. This is a forum not a lecture theatre.
QED.

So, let's go back a little... What did you say exactly?
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am Why do you use words like 'we' and 'nobody' in a forum like this? Do you consider yourself some sort of authority on these topics? Because you certainly don't give me that impression.
Well, you had the opportunity to flesh out your "impression" and you backed down.
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 am You just seem to be regurgitating other peoples ideas without any understanding or original thought. You deny that knowledge requires assumptions and yet you make reference to Russell and Descartes to allow them to make the assumptions for you.
At least I'm prepared to argue my claim. You're not.
EB
You seem to think that knowledge is equivalent to pain....

I am not prepared to debate with someone with that view as there is so little common ground.
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by Speakpigeon »

A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:46 pm You seem to think that knowledge is equivalent to pain....

You seem to understand very, very, very little of what people say. That's almost frightening. Do you have the right to vote?
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:46 pm I am not prepared to debate with someone with that view as there is so little common ground.
You are incapable of arguing in a rational way and even if you were, you don't understand what people say to begin with.
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by 11011 »

all knowledge proceeds from assumption, but is not all assumption

and it is what comes after assumption - how people arrive at conclusions - that can be judged, making not all knowledge equal

so no assumption and knowledge are not one and the same

i believe you're making a fallacy of composition? assumptions are just a part of knowledge..
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A_Seagull
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by A_Seagull »

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:53 pm
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:46 pm You seem to think that knowledge is equivalent to pain....

You seem to understand very, very, very little of what people say. That's almost frightening. Do you have the right to vote?
A_Seagull wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:46 pm I am not prepared to debate with someone with that view as there is so little common ground.
You are incapable of arguing in a rational way and even if you were, you don't understand what people say to begin with.
EB
I have a policy of not trying to make sense of nonsense.

Perhaps philately is more your thing than philosophy.
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by A_Seagull »

11011 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:59 pm all knowledge proceeds from assumption, but is not all assumption
I agree with this.

But it is not easy to justify this. Particularly to those who adopt a naïve reality position.

It seems obvious that we create a picture of the world, and a necessary prerequisite of creating a picture is an assumption upon where to start. But this would not be convincing to a naïve realist. But I guess that naïve reality constitutes an assumption in itself, albeit a naïve one.
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by Logik »

A_Seagull wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:17 am
11011 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:59 pm all knowledge proceeds from assumption, but is not all assumption
I agree with this.

But it is not easy to justify this. Particularly to those who adopt a naïve reality position.

It seems obvious that we create a picture of the world, and a necessary prerequisite of creating a picture is an assumption upon where to start. But this would not be convincing to a naïve realist. But I guess that naïve reality constitutes an assumption in itself, albeit a naïve one.
From a distance, and in the broadest strokes possible - it seems this discussion is being divided across the lines of Foundationalism and Coherentism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherenti ... s_argument

My argument re: ontological error of philosophy stands. All "What is X" questions are philosophical errors and lead to dead ends.

If Knowledge ⇔ Assumption then you have just kicked the can down the road. What is assumption?

Rather ask "What does knowledge do?"; or "What do you use knowledge for?"
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by Logik »

11011 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:59 pm all knowledge proceeds from assumption, but is not all assumption
Disagree. All knowledge is a product of learning. Learning is a function of experience.
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by A_Seagull »

Logik wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:26 am
A_Seagull wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:17 am
11011 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:59 pm all knowledge proceeds from assumption, but is not all assumption
I agree with this.

But it is not easy to justify this. Particularly to those who adopt a naïve reality position.

It seems obvious that we create a picture of the world, and a necessary prerequisite of creating a picture is an assumption upon where to start. But this would not be convincing to a naïve realist. But I guess that naïve reality constitutes an assumption in itself, albeit a naïve one.
From a distance, and in the broadest strokes possible - it seems this discussion is being divided across the lines of Foundationalism and Coherentism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherenti ... s_argument

My argument re: ontological error of philosophy stands. All "What is X" questions are philosophical errors and lead to dead ends.

If Knowledge ⇔ Assumption then you have just kicked the can down the road. What is assumption?

Rather ask "What does knowledge do?"; or "What do you use knowledge for?"
Perhaps you should answer your own questions....
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by Dontaskme »

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:42 am
"One doesn't so much know pain"?!
So, do we or do we not?
OK, so suppose you go into surgery and the surgeon starts cutting into your flesh without anaesthetics. You tell him you're in pain. He replies, "You don't know that" and keeps cutting the bits he doesn't like. See?
You are missing the point here. Knowing is only possible by association.

The concept ''pain'' is known via awareness of that pain. Pain is a concept known by association via awareness. But then what knows awareness? does the pain know awareness, what knows awareness? ...isn't awareness just a mystery, and that any claim to know what awareness is must be the same mystery trying to solve it's own mystery? ...in that logic there simply is no known knower. And that all knowing is one, which equates to none...no knower...only knowing as assumed by the mystery itself....see how tricky that is? And that is the point being made here in this thread.

Same applies to the body...awareness knows the body, but what knows awareness? what's looking and knowing here? Is the body looking and knowing awareness or is awareness looking and knowing the body? and how could it be known ''what'' is looking at ''what'' here? where is the difference, can that be shown, be known, and how?

Is the body looking at you, or are you looking at the body? if you look for the looker can you actually find it? you might point to your body and say this body is looking...so then that means we have a body that can look at itself, ...but can a body really see itself...no of course not the seer cannot see itself. . . except as an assumed conceptual image, an idea within it's own imageless mystery.

It really is not known what awareness is ...there is an awareness of knowing, but it is not known what that knowing awareness is...for the awareness is a mystery even to itself...therefore any claimed knower is a fiction within the same mysterious not knowing knowing.

What you are talking about is the fictional story of I know I am in pain...where there is an apparent I that claims to know itself, which in truth can only be an assumption. But nothing wrong with an assumption as every assumption is an integral part of the mystery of being awareness itself...but it's still an assumption.

The point is, without awareness there is no sensation to be aware of, like wise, without sensation there is no awareness. Both awareness and sensation arise mutually in the same instant, there is no separation or any room to make ownership or claim on it...reality is one undivided seamless unclaimed unitary action phenomena. Any claim is an assumed claim.

Neither sensation or awareness can be seen..these can only be known as a fictional conceptual construct of the invisible, appearing from the invisible, to the invisible and as and through the invisible within the invisible.

Awareness has never seen a concept it knows.... a concept is just an idea known. It appears here there is an apparent identification with a concept as being something in and of itself separate from the knowing awareness of it...there is not, except the conceptual idea, already within itself as awareness..the invisible mystery.

I hope this makes no/sense to you.

.
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Re: All Knowledge is Assumption, Assumption is Knowledge

Post by Logik »

A_Seagull wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:08 am Perhaps you should answer your own questions....
Sure.

I am merely pointing out that it's an insufficient strategy for somebody who keeps asking stupid questions like "What is X?".

They will keep getting stupid answers like "X is Y and Y is X".
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