A_Seagull (as i just noticed you are on this forum),
but opinion need not be based on any logic.
language was very important to the crux of my post. rigorousness is not relevant here. it is the requirement that philosophy boast some logic, even just a modicum, for it to be philosophical.
that is at least one fundamental difference between opinion and philosophy. as i stated in my previous post, opinion can be based on anything. it can be based on feeling, mere personal preference, etc, and yes while perhaps some philosophers pad what are really just personal preferences with logic in order to justify them or make them philosophically sound or creditable, that motivation alone does not change the product: as long as it is logical, it meets one of the criteria of philosophy.
opinion explicitly need not be logical, and so that is the difference.
do you agree? (now that i've clarified)
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
You asserted that ' it is logic'... that is the difference between opinion and philosophy.11011 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:24 pm A_Seagull (as i just noticed you are on this forum),
but opinion need not be based on any logic.
language was very important to the crux of my post. rigorousness is not relevant here. it is the requirement that philosophy boast some logic, even just a modicum, for it to be philosophical.
that is at least one fundamental difference between opinion and philosophy. as i stated in my previous post, opinion can be based on anything. it can be based on feeling, mere personal preference, etc, and yes while perhaps some philosophers pad what are really just personal preferences with logic in order to justify them or make them philosophically sound or creditable, that motivation alone does not change the product: as long as it is logical, it meets one of the criteria of philosophy.
opinion explicitly need not be logical, and so that is the difference.
do you agree? (now that i've clarified)
I would agree that logic is at the crux of the difference and also at the crux of the OP.
But what is this logic? So far as I can tell it is typically a far from rigorous logic. and pays more lip service to being logical than actually being logical.
And that was my point of the OP, philosophy is not rigorously logical and hence indistinguishable from opinion.
Also I suspect that opinions are logical, it is just that the logic by which the opinion is reached may be convoluted but more importantly it is hidden or covert. In contrast philosophy needs to be overt in its logic, something which it seems to me to be generally lacking.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
by logical i mean presented in the form of an argument, rather than just a statement.
while some opinions are arguments or adopt the argument format (point:proof, or essay format) they need not be. i can't emphasize this enough. this issue (of this thread) is fundamentally about what makes a word, concept, or category different from another, and thus what determines whether something falls into that category.
the essence of an opinion - what makes an opinion an opinion and different from other concepts - does not include 'argumentative format', and an argument, formally speaking, is the point:proof or essay format of stating something.
to illustrate:
"chocolate is great"
is an opinion.
if asked, 'why is chocolate great'?' the opinionator need not provide a reason of any sort (though there may be one) for it to remain an opinion. the attribute of it being an opinion does not depend on supporting evidence or a reason. the simple statement ''chocolate is great'' is sufficient and meets to the requirements of an opinion.
philosophy on the other hand must include the other elements of argument. it must provide a reason for, support, or explain statements or what it states will not fall under the category of philosophy.
i emphasize again that this issue of whether philosophy is just belief or opinion is a language and category issue, it has nothing to do with implications of rigor, or authority, or any of that.
while some opinions are arguments or adopt the argument format (point:proof, or essay format) they need not be. i can't emphasize this enough. this issue (of this thread) is fundamentally about what makes a word, concept, or category different from another, and thus what determines whether something falls into that category.
the essence of an opinion - what makes an opinion an opinion and different from other concepts - does not include 'argumentative format', and an argument, formally speaking, is the point:proof or essay format of stating something.
to illustrate:
"chocolate is great"
is an opinion.
if asked, 'why is chocolate great'?' the opinionator need not provide a reason of any sort (though there may be one) for it to remain an opinion. the attribute of it being an opinion does not depend on supporting evidence or a reason. the simple statement ''chocolate is great'' is sufficient and meets to the requirements of an opinion.
philosophy on the other hand must include the other elements of argument. it must provide a reason for, support, or explain statements or what it states will not fall under the category of philosophy.
i emphasize again that this issue of whether philosophy is just belief or opinion is a language and category issue, it has nothing to do with implications of rigor, or authority, or any of that.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
however, i will address some of the implications so as to not make this a moot point, because putting myself in your position i can imagine this coming off as a moot point as it stands, lol, and based on your angle in the other thread, so let me flesh it out some. also i'm in a playful mood atm so bear with me (unrelated to this forum)
the bottom line is 'philosophy' and 'opinion' as words in our language boast distinct histories that affect the images that come to people's minds when they hear them, where conflating the two misrepresents philosophy, unjustifiably undermining its credibility and significance. yes, some philosophy is shoddy, in that while boasting reason, the reason is poor, but i hardly think this deserves calling all of philosophy 'opinion' as if these two should be regarded as a the same
if we were to make a table, with two columns, and put the history of philosophy in one, and the history of opinions in the other, which would contain more reason?
ok bad example, probably opinion because more opinions have been expressed than philosophy (in some form) and assuming at least a proportion of those opinions had some reason they collectively would probably outweigh philosophy...but
for which can we expect more reason? for every case of philosophy uttered in thought, paper, or speech, and every case of opinion likewise, statistically, which is more likely to be accompanied by reason?
PHILOSOPHY
that is the association in people's minds, and rightfully so!
for the history of philosophy gives credence to this; the history of opinion does not!
and these duel histories have colored the meaning of the words!
so calling philosophy opinion is slander!
moreover, beyond the simple criteria of 'must include a reason', which is more likely to be accompanied by substantial reason...again!
PHILOSOPHY
that is the association in people's minds, and rightfully so...
for philosophy boasts that history to give its implications credence
so what do we make of current efforts to call philosophy mere opinion or belief? a sleaze tactic on the part of certain institutions to erase the significant contribution of philosophy in education and beyond to our understanding of the universe including the human world so that new mostly misguided ideas can germinate in young people's minds, and...to destroy the notion of truth, that it exists or can be known, to reduce knowledge to mere opinion which is far more suitable to our ever-changing, ever increasingly plastic world, unfettered by the past....unfettered by the authority of truth
instead let the radically subjective world of the individual gain paramount significance, not reality; let institutions have an easier time 'teaching' what needs to be known and accepted NOW rather than compete with truth
in short to make people more moldable/adaptable to constantly changing societal conditions
thank you
the bottom line is 'philosophy' and 'opinion' as words in our language boast distinct histories that affect the images that come to people's minds when they hear them, where conflating the two misrepresents philosophy, unjustifiably undermining its credibility and significance. yes, some philosophy is shoddy, in that while boasting reason, the reason is poor, but i hardly think this deserves calling all of philosophy 'opinion' as if these two should be regarded as a the same
if we were to make a table, with two columns, and put the history of philosophy in one, and the history of opinions in the other, which would contain more reason?
ok bad example, probably opinion because more opinions have been expressed than philosophy (in some form) and assuming at least a proportion of those opinions had some reason they collectively would probably outweigh philosophy...but
for which can we expect more reason? for every case of philosophy uttered in thought, paper, or speech, and every case of opinion likewise, statistically, which is more likely to be accompanied by reason?
PHILOSOPHY
that is the association in people's minds, and rightfully so!
for the history of philosophy gives credence to this; the history of opinion does not!
and these duel histories have colored the meaning of the words!
so calling philosophy opinion is slander!
moreover, beyond the simple criteria of 'must include a reason', which is more likely to be accompanied by substantial reason...again!
PHILOSOPHY
that is the association in people's minds, and rightfully so...
for philosophy boasts that history to give its implications credence
so what do we make of current efforts to call philosophy mere opinion or belief? a sleaze tactic on the part of certain institutions to erase the significant contribution of philosophy in education and beyond to our understanding of the universe including the human world so that new mostly misguided ideas can germinate in young people's minds, and...to destroy the notion of truth, that it exists or can be known, to reduce knowledge to mere opinion which is far more suitable to our ever-changing, ever increasingly plastic world, unfettered by the past....unfettered by the authority of truth
instead let the radically subjective world of the individual gain paramount significance, not reality; let institutions have an easier time 'teaching' what needs to be known and accepted NOW rather than compete with truth
in short to make people more moldable/adaptable to constantly changing societal conditions
thank you
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
Perhaps then I should emphasise that this issue runs to the very core of philosophy.11011 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:23 am by logical i mean presented in the form of an argument, rather than just a statement.
while some opinions are arguments or adopt the argument format (point:proof, or essay format) they need not be. i can't emphasize this enough. this issue (of this thread) is fundamentally about what makes a word, concept, or category different from another, and thus what determines whether something falls into that category.
the essence of an opinion - what makes an opinion an opinion and different from other concepts - does not include 'argumentative format', and an argument, formally speaking, is the point:proof or essay format of stating something.
to illustrate:
"chocolate is great"
is an opinion.
if asked, 'why is chocolate great'?' the opinionator need not provide a reason of any sort (though there may be one) for it to remain an opinion. the attribute of it being an opinion does not depend on supporting evidence or a reason. the simple statement ''chocolate is great'' is sufficient and meets to the requirements of an opinion.
philosophy on the other hand must include the other elements of argument. it must provide a reason for, support, or explain statements or what it states will not fall under the category of philosophy.
i emphasize again that this issue of whether philosophy is just belief or opinion is a language and category issue, it has nothing to do with implications of rigor, or authority, or any of that.
If philosophy lacks rigour, which it does (just because something can be put into an argument-type form does not give it rigour);then it is indistinguishable from opinion.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
unless you can show that the distinction i just made is false and/or insignificant then it is clearly not indistinguishable from opinion.
i suspect we're at an impasse in this discussion because of your commitment to your position despite evidence to the contrary; if you'd open up a bit, for example by demonstrating the above, then we can continue
we all have our biases but if someone shows me evidence against something i hold to be true i'll admit i'm wrong, even if only tentatively, i mean i have to or i'll no longer be doing philosophy
i suspect we're at an impasse in this discussion because of your commitment to your position despite evidence to the contrary; if you'd open up a bit, for example by demonstrating the above, then we can continue
we all have our biases but if someone shows me evidence against something i hold to be true i'll admit i'm wrong, even if only tentatively, i mean i have to or i'll no longer be doing philosophy
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
If you start in a universe without philosophy, but you want to philosophize.. what would you do?
You would invent a tool for philosophizing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%C ... E%BF%CF%82Logos (UK: /ˈloʊɡɒs, ˈlɒɡɒs/, US: /ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Ancient Greek: λόγος, translit. lógos; from λέγω, légō, lit. 'I say') is a term in Western philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion derived from a Greek word variously meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", and "discourse".
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
I presume u meant 'distinguishable' and not 'not distinguishable'....11011 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:41 am unless you can show that the distinction i just made is false and/or insignificant then it is clearly not indistinguishable from opinion.
i suspect we're at an impasse in this discussion because of your commitment to your position despite evidence to the contrary; if you'd open up a bit, for example by demonstrating the above, then we can continue
we all have our biases but if someone shows me evidence against something i hold to be true i'll admit i'm wrong, even if only tentatively, i mean i have to or i'll no longer be doing philosophy
If you have a banana and you mash it, it is still essentially a banana.
If you take an opinion and put it into 'argument' form', it is still essentially a banana.
Take the example of an opinion : 'I like cake'. If put into argument form, it still remains an opinion..
eg..
P1 I like nice things.
P2 cake is a nice thing.
C Therefore I like cake.
QED.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
i meant philosophy is distinguishable from opinion on the basis of the reasons i states, among others.
'i like cake' is not an opinion.
an opinion is a judgement, for example, 'cake is great'
i don't know why you're attempting to refute my solid distinction with crudeness. the point of philosophy is to draw out the precise distinctions and meanings of words, yet every time i make a surgical cut you slam your rusty bread knife on the cutting board
i understand what you're saying. philosophy lacks rigor, i accept this. hell, even science often times lacks rigor. philosophy lacks rigor even more, it is not science, but that's also an unrealistic standard to hold it against given the subject matter....it can't be truly rigorous (exact) because its objects of study can't be observed...etc.
but this is a separate issue!
you're creating a straw man...
the op of the original thread was not holding philosophy up to ideal scientific rigor when they asked the question of whether it was just opinion or belief on this basis, it was more general than that, hence the responses that followed approached it a number of ways, the first few posts did not even mention rigor so obviously this isn't my idiosyncratic interpretation of things
i accept your interpretation and point, but that is not the end of the issue. the question is, is there a significant difference between philosophy and opinion or belief, and by significant we mean in terms of things like credibility
and the answer is YES
now, can we focus on this angle to the question/issue?
i said i accept your point, but it does not mean that they are indistinguishable!
that's madness.
'i like cake' is not an opinion.
an opinion is a judgement, for example, 'cake is great'
i don't know why you're attempting to refute my solid distinction with crudeness. the point of philosophy is to draw out the precise distinctions and meanings of words, yet every time i make a surgical cut you slam your rusty bread knife on the cutting board
i understand what you're saying. philosophy lacks rigor, i accept this. hell, even science often times lacks rigor. philosophy lacks rigor even more, it is not science, but that's also an unrealistic standard to hold it against given the subject matter....it can't be truly rigorous (exact) because its objects of study can't be observed...etc.
but this is a separate issue!
you're creating a straw man...
the op of the original thread was not holding philosophy up to ideal scientific rigor when they asked the question of whether it was just opinion or belief on this basis, it was more general than that, hence the responses that followed approached it a number of ways, the first few posts did not even mention rigor so obviously this isn't my idiosyncratic interpretation of things
i accept your interpretation and point, but that is not the end of the issue. the question is, is there a significant difference between philosophy and opinion or belief, and by significant we mean in terms of things like credibility
and the answer is YES
now, can we focus on this angle to the question/issue?
i said i accept your point, but it does not mean that they are indistinguishable!
that's madness.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
Trivial example.
Because language is imprecise. And your surgical cut - isn't.
Example: 11011 is human.
Fact or judgment?
They are distinguishable if I like your distinction and indistinguishable if I don't.
I can agree with anything you say and interpret it favourably.
I can disagree with anything you say and interpret it unfavourably.
It's a choice. And it's why human affairs are such a mess.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
we're not comparing facts with judgements, that is a more messy affair.
we are comparing essentially judgements with reasons, vs judgements without reasons.
that is a not so messy affair.
another surgical cut.
i can even frame this entire discussion in entirely clear and exact terms.
philosophy = opinion + reason (required)
-> philosophy requires reason like science requires the scientific method to be science and not something else
opinion = opinion +....
-> no reason required
what is messy about this? you want it to be messy because then you can continue to undermine the idea of knowledge which is what i know you love doing
and while we're defining terms let me remind you that philosophy means
LOVE OF KNOWLEDGE (philos - love of/affinity for; logos - knowledge)
we are comparing essentially judgements with reasons, vs judgements without reasons.
that is a not so messy affair.
another surgical cut.
i can even frame this entire discussion in entirely clear and exact terms.
philosophy = opinion + reason (required)
-> philosophy requires reason like science requires the scientific method to be science and not something else
opinion = opinion +....
-> no reason required
what is messy about this? you want it to be messy because then you can continue to undermine the idea of knowledge which is what i know you love doing
and while we're defining terms let me remind you that philosophy means
LOVE OF KNOWLEDGE (philos - love of/affinity for; logos - knowledge)
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
What you call a surgical cut is what I call smashing it with a brick.
What is reason? Can you recognize reason? What are the signs/symptoms that allow you to distinguish reason form non-reason?
Any statistician would recognize this for what it is: binary classification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_classification
That's not true. I only undermine explicit knowledge e.g know-that knowledge.
I recognize tacit e.g know-how as knowledge.
People who can DO, not people who can SAY they can do.
Is this a surgical cut or a brick-smashing exercise? I dunno.
It's love of wisdom actually. There is know-how, and there is still knowing HOW to use knowledge itself.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
it doesn't matter what reason is in this context, it's the fact that it's present or rather required in philosophy whereas in opinion it is not.
you're problematizing at random, and while interesting it doesn't challenge my demonstrated distinction.
you're problematizing at random, and while interesting it doesn't challenge my demonstrated distinction.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
What does matter is whether you are able to recognize reason. This is a know-how problem.
If I ask you to sort a bag of green and red balls into their respective colors but you are color-blind - then you can't do it.
If you can't distinguish between the presence and absence of reason then you can't distinguish between belief and opinion.
You are trivializing a valid concern, and until you can demonstrate ability to recognize reason from non-reason it is a distinction without a difference.
Re: Everything in philosophy is belief or opinion?
Let me demonstrate to you why your scale for "precision" is miscalibrated.
I have posted this challenge (that nobody seems to want to participate in) here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=26199
Either the two images are the same e.g there is no surgical cut.
Or they are different e.g there is a surgical cut.
Choose an answer.