A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:18 am

"All species are glorious, including us!"

Yep, but as a human: I'm (justifiably) biased.

#

"So did you do it? Did you sit in a chair for an hour without thinking?"

So, can YOU do it? Can you sit in a chair for an hour without the distractions of tv, and other folks and just think?

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Greta
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Re:

Post by Greta » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:27 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:18 am
"All species are glorious, including us!"

Yep, but as a human: I'm (justifiably) biased.

#

"So did you do it? Did you sit in a chair for an hour without thinking?"

So, can YOU do it? Can you sit in a chair for an hour without the distractions of tv, and other folks and just think?
Yes, we usually prefer creatures that are like us - smart enough to assess and respond to situation rather than go straight into fight or flight.

I personally never much enjoyed non-thinking. When my mind is blank(-ish) I notice all the aches, pains and itches that are my life, so I relax by spending a hour or two in the company of just plants and animals each day.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by -1- » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:39 am

roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:25 am
Those who don't think the human species is exhibiting destructive, cancerous behavior won't agree with this. I'm not going to try to convince you how fucked up the species really is, other than this:

I propose that everyone reading this simply sit still in a quiet room for one hour without thinking. Just sit there and don't do anything and don't think of anything.

Actually do it. Just don't think.

What is the purpose of all those thoughts? How much control do you have of your own mind? Now think about the fact that pretty much all of humanity has the same uncontrolled mind.

Everyone has the same disease but because everyone has it it seems normal. It's not and we're going to kill everything on the planet because of our sickness.
No human can sit in and not think for a whole hour. I can't go even one moment without thinking when I'm awake. Some who practice meditation, claim that they can.

Your stance is true, that man's behaviour is due to his thinking behaviour. I can't raise an argument against it.

You yourself said we have no control over our thoughts. So how do we conquer our own thinking behaviour? We can't.

The upshot is, "suck it up, buttercup". Not you, roydop, or your theory, but the situation. You can't make people discard thinking.

If we did not think we would not be humans. That's what defines us, and it's something that we can't give up on command, on torture, nothing. Thinking is an integral, inalienable, unremovable element of being human.

If it makes us into a cancerous growth on the Globe, and it destroys the globe, well, that's not nice, but we still can't stop thinking. That is not something we can do.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by FlashDangerpants » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:05 am

roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:25 am
Those who don't think the human species is exhibiting destructive, cancerous behavior won't agree with this. I'm not going to try to convince you how fucked up the species really is, other than this:
That's not how logic works. If you had a logical argument as claimed, you would provide premises which demonstrate the truth of a conclusion. What you are describing is an opinion that some stuff you can't demonstrate is true but only the like minded are clever enough to understand your genius.
roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:25 am
What is the purpose of all those thoughts? How much control do you have of your own mind? Now think about the fact that pretty much all of humanity has the same uncontrolled mind.
That is paradoxical. Either you can control your thoughts - in which case you can turn think about something else, or think about nothing... or you cannot control them, in which case they are out of your control and you cannot think about other things, or no things.

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Re:

Post by roydop » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:57 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:18 am
"All species are glorious, including us!"

Yep, but as a human: I'm (justifiably) biased.

#

"So did you do it? Did you sit in a chair for an hour without thinking?"

So, can YOU do it? Can you sit in a chair for an hour without the distractions of tv, and other folks and just think?

So no, you can't stop thinking. I'm guessing for more than a few seconds at a time.

Of course I can sit in a chair and divert the stream of thoughts here and there. I'm trying to get people to take an objective look at their own mind. And if this is done, it will be seen that the typical human has no peace of mind. Literally.

Dictionary result for peace
/pēs/Submit
noun
noun: peace; noun: the peace
1. freedom from disturbance; tranquility.
Last edited by roydop on Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by roydop » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:26 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:39 am

No human can sit in and not think for a whole hour. I can't go even one moment without thinking when I'm awake. Some who practice meditation, claim that they can.

Your stance is true, that man's behaviour is due to his thinking behaviour. I can't raise an argument against it.

You yourself said we have no control over our thoughts. So how do we conquer our own thinking behaviour? We can't.

The upshot is, "suck it up, buttercup". Not you, roydop, or your theory, but the situation. You can't make people discard thinking.

If we did not think we would not be humans. That's what defines us, and it's something that we can't give up on command, on torture, nothing. Thinking is an integral, inalienable, unremovable element of being human.

If it makes us into a cancerous growth on the Globe, and it destroys the globe, well, that's not nice, but we still can't stop thinking. That is not something we can do.
There was a man named Ramana Maharshi who lived in India until 1950. His life and words are well documented and not yet distorted. He had an Enlightenment experience at the age of 16 and never suffered again, despite excruciating physical pain. His "I..." internal monologue had completely shut down. I and a man named Gary Weber have both adopted Ramana's practice (I simply paid attention to the space between thoughts as often as I remembered to and remained thought free as long as I could). Both Gary and I have experienced an 80% reduction in thought, and don't suffer.

So yes, it is possible to transcend the thought process completely, and I am suggesting that this is the next evolutionary step for consciousness. Consciousness that remains focused on it's own Absolute existence will not require anything relative to it for it's existence (like thought, or even sensations) and the need for all of those thoughts to be relative to will no longer be required. Not even the world will be required, in Ramana's case. So He's done.

I know this sounds crazy because you've probably never heard anyone talk about this before, and it is exactly because everyone is under the same delusion. The catch 22 is that this will be very hard to accept without first experiencing deep thought free awareness, and if one doesn't accept this info, they probably won't adopt a practice to investigate the thought free state.

There's an infinite sea of peace available now, always, underneath all this noise. Happiness is our true nature.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by roydop » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:44 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:05 am
What you are describing is an opinion that some stuff you can't demonstrate is true but only the like minded are clever enough to understand your genius.
Sit in a chair and don't think. There's your demonstration. If you don't see a problem with your mind after sitting in a chair and trying to stop your thinking then... well I suppose you'll just continue on.

When I did that 20 years ago I came to the conclusion that I was fucking crazy. And I was right. And I engaged in a practice that helped pull me out of my delusion. The problem is that everyone is under the same delusion, which makes it very difficult to recognize.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by FlashDangerpants » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:57 pm

roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:44 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:05 am
What you are describing is an opinion that some stuff you can't demonstrate is true but only the like minded are clever enough to understand your genius.
Sit in a chair and don't think. There's your demonstration. If you don't see a problem with your mind after sitting in a chair and trying to stop your thinking then... well I suppose you'll just continue on.

When I did that 20 years ago I came to the conclusion that I was fucking crazy. And I was right. And I engaged in a practice that helped pull me out of my delusion. The problem is that everyone is under the same delusion, which makes it very difficult to recognize.
This is lazy substitution of religion for argument. You still have exactly the same problem I described, you are just tuning it out by switching off your intelligence. I don't want that problem, I am not joining your cult. Either back up logical claims with logical argument or adjust your claims to match what you are actually capable of delivering.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by roydop » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:13 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:57 pm
roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:44 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:05 am
What you are describing is an opinion that some stuff you can't demonstrate is true but only the like minded are clever enough to understand your genius.
Sit in a chair and don't think. There's your demonstration. If you don't see a problem with your mind after sitting in a chair and trying to stop your thinking then... well I suppose you'll just continue on.

When I did that 20 years ago I came to the conclusion that I was fucking crazy. And I was right. And I engaged in a practice that helped pull me out of my delusion. The problem is that everyone is under the same delusion, which makes it very difficult to recognize.
This is lazy substitution of religion for argument. You still have exactly the same problem I described, you are just tuning it out by switching off your intelligence. I don't want that problem, I am not joining your cult. Either back up logical claims with logical argument or adjust your claims to match what you are actually capable of delivering.
How is experimental testing and verification a substitute for effective investigation? Does not theory need to be tested against/in one's own experience? And how is seeking the path out of suffering a cult?

How about if I rename it: "A REASONABLE ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR" ? Forget the logic; it's just a starting place to start looking for truth anyway. Logic in and of itself is not truth. After the initial supposition it's a ponzi scheme.

I mentioned a few posts ago that you would go on and on and on... about this and I even told you why you would do this. Until you actually engage in a serious investigation into the thought free state you will not understand what I'm talking about. This isn't meant to be an intellectual masturbation session, it's to help lessen suffering within humanity.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by FlashDangerpants » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:05 pm

roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:13 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:57 pm
roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:44 pm


Sit in a chair and don't think. There's your demonstration. If you don't see a problem with your mind after sitting in a chair and trying to stop your thinking then... well I suppose you'll just continue on.

When I did that 20 years ago I came to the conclusion that I was fucking crazy. And I was right. And I engaged in a practice that helped pull me out of my delusion. The problem is that everyone is under the same delusion, which makes it very difficult to recognize.
This is lazy substitution of religion for argument. You still have exactly the same problem I described, you are just tuning it out by switching off your intelligence. I don't want that problem, I am not joining your cult. Either back up logical claims with logical argument or adjust your claims to match what you are actually capable of delivering.
How is experimental testing and verification a substitute for effective investigation? Does not theory need to be tested against/in one's own experience? And how is seeking the path out of suffering a cult?
It's not an experimental investigation of the causes of humanity's impending obliteration though. The only thing that you are testing by blanking your mind is the personal effects you receive from blank-mindedness. If you actually want to investigate anything, you must first assess the tools you need to perform the task. Your tools cannot do what you claim, and wishing it were otherwise will not change that. Your method of investigation is instrumentally irrational.
roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:13 pm
How about if I rename it: "A REASONABLE ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR" ? Forget the logic; it's just a starting place to start looking for truth anyway. Logic in and of itself is not truth. After the initial supposition it's a ponzi scheme.
That's sour grapes, logic is a suitable tool for investigating claims made via argument, you can't make a logical claim about the ponzi scheme thing for obvious reasons even if you were to find a meaningful way to describe the matter.

The correct title would be "An opinion on the cause of humanity's unnatural behavior", you can then avoid the attention seeking caps lock problem while you address your other issues, and we can then wrap the discussion up as I will immediately lose all interest.
roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:13 pm
I mentioned a few posts ago that you would go on and on and on... about this and I even told you why you would do this. Until you actually engage in a serious investigation into the thought free state you will not understand what I'm talking about. This isn't meant to be an intellectual masturbation session, it's to help lessen suffering within humanity.
And I advised you a while ago not to treat an argument like a pet because I could easily see that you are emotionally invested in a substandard product. You should have followed my advice. I am never going to treat your thought free thing seriously, I don't need to for this discussion and I will never bother with one where I did need to as it wouldn't be on a subject that I cared about at all.

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Post by henry quirk » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:19 pm

"I personally never much enjoyed non-thinking."

Non-thinking: I don't know what that means, and I don't wanna...I enjoy thinking...moreover, thinking is just plain useful...every problem I ever got into was because I didn't think it through, and every problem I (re)solved was because I did.

Thinking is normal and natural and useful, and anyone promoting otherwise is just plain wrong.

No, the 'problem' isn't thinking. The 'problem' is distracted thinking. All manner of corrosive memetic bullshit is thrown a body's way: you gotta play gatekeeper and keep that rot out of your head.

Humans as cancer is one of those rotten, corrosive, dollops of bullshit best left out in the pasture. Not thinking (self-lobotomization) is another best left in the pasture.

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Post by henry quirk » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:29 pm

"I'm trying to get people to take an objective look at their own mind."

No, you're not. If you wanted folks to take stock, you woulda said ' go into a dark quiet room away from all distractions, sit in a chair and just think'. Instead: you tell folks to stop thinking. You can't review the manifest without thinkin' about it.

#

"the typical human has no peace of mind."

So what? Why is activity wrong? Why is problem-solving wrong? Why is curiosity wrong? Why is discomfort wrong? Stressors (lacks and discomforts) promote growth, enhancement, complexity.

You're happy as a potted pant: good on you.

Me: I got other plans.

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Crom, save me from zealots!

Post by henry quirk » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:33 pm

"When I did that 20 years ago I came to the conclusion that I was fucking crazy. And I was right. And I engaged in a practice that helped pull me out of my delusion. The problem is that everyone is under the same delusion, which makes it very difficult to recognize."

Translation: You're all crazy and I'm here to cure you.

Translation: I know better than you.

Go pound sand, Roy.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by roydop » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:15 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:05 pm
roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:13 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:57 pm

This is lazy substitution of religion for argument. You still have exactly the same problem I described, you are just tuning it out by switching off your intelligence. I don't want that problem, I am not joining your cult. Either back up logical claims with logical argument or adjust your claims to match what you are actually capable of delivering.
How is experimental testing and verification a substitute for effective investigation? Does not theory need to be tested against/in one's own experience? And how is seeking the path out of suffering a cult?
It's not an experimental investigation of the causes of humanity's impending obliteration though. The only thing that you are testing by blanking your mind is the personal effects you receive from blank-mindedness. If you actually want to investigate anything, you must first assess the tools you need to perform the task. Your tools cannot do what you claim, and wishing it were otherwise will not change that. Your method of investigation is instrumentally irrational.
roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:13 pm
How about if I rename it: "A REASONABLE ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR" ? Forget the logic; it's just a starting place to start looking for truth anyway. Logic in and of itself is not truth. After the initial supposition it's a ponzi scheme.
That's sour grapes, logic is a suitable tool for investigating claims made via argument, you can't make a logical claim about the ponzi scheme thing for obvious reasons even if you were to find a meaningful way to describe the matter.

The correct title would be "An opinion on the cause of humanity's unnatural behavior", you can then avoid the attention seeking caps lock problem while you address your other issues, and we can then wrap the discussion up as I will immediately lose all interest.
roydop wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:13 pm
I mentioned a few posts ago that you would go on and on and on... about this and I even told you why you would do this. Until you actually engage in a serious investigation into the thought free state you will not understand what I'm talking about. This isn't meant to be an intellectual masturbation session, it's to help lessen suffering within humanity.
And I advised you a while ago not to treat an argument like a pet because I could easily see that you are emotionally invested in a substandard product. You should have followed my advice. I am never going to treat your thought free thing seriously, I don't need to for this discussion and I will never bother with one where I did need to as it wouldn't be on a subject that I cared about at all.
Bye bye.

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Re: Crom, save me from zealots!

Post by roydop » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:15 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:33 pm
"When I did that 20 years ago I came to the conclusion that I was fucking crazy. And I was right. And I engaged in a practice that helped pull me out of my delusion. The problem is that everyone is under the same delusion, which makes it very difficult to recognize."

Translation: You're all crazy and I'm here to cure you.

Translation: I know better than you.

Go pound sand, Roy.
Bye bye.

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