All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

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Logik
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:27 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:20 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:56 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:51 pm


Last time I check modern computer's cannot deal with irrational foundations nor create axioms randomly.
Last time I checked “computer” was a human job title from the 1920s.

Alan Turing observer humans at work in order to formulate his theory of computation.

He abstracted the process. The piece of electronics on your desk is just an implementation of the Mathematics.
That exactly what it is a "word" or symbol representative the perspective of industrialization of its times. It is a temporal concept of the time, progressing

"from a Latin word “computare” which means to “to calculate” , “to count” , “to sum up” or “to think together”. So, more precisely the word computer mean s a "device that performs computation".

https://www.bing.com/search?q=origin+of ... 94B0529A29

Thus the nature of computing, observes laws of progressive movement which exist through but transcend the definition of and the act of "computing" itself.
It doesn’t observe any laws except recursion.

Is recursion a law or a pattern?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:23 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:57 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:55 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:49 pm

Why assume symmetry between subject and object?

What if the relationship is asymmetric?

Because all asymmetry requires a variation of a proceeding symmetry. I can argue that "B" is asymmetrical, effectively "odd", but if it is contains symmetrical elements A,C, then the asymmetrical property is in itself dependent upon asymmetry.

I can argue that a line projecting into space is asymmetrical, but if the line is composed of a fractals...it is not asymmetric. Assymmetry can be argued as symmetry adapting to chaos/void through variation and as such is an extension of symmetry and not a foundation in itself.
And I can argue that dots and lines are just a construct of your mind.

Show me a line or a dot in the real world.
Dots and Lines are both Constructs of the Mind and Empirical Phenomenon; hence they provide a foundation for all "being" as axiomized by "space".

1) All phenomenon are points relative to other phenomenon by distance. I can stare a point of light in the distance, walk towards it, only to see it unfold as a car or some other object. The point is an empirical phenomenon.

2) People always stair as a specific point in space, before looking at another point. All observation is premised on the progression of stairing at one point and then moving to another. We can see this in the process of deductivity where phenomenon are broken down to finite points. The point maintains a dual empirical and abstract nature. The nature of induction, as a movement of finite atomic facts (as points of awareness deemed by there axiomatic nature), maintains this dual nature abstraction to a general law as a "point" in itself or empirically by observing the connection of finite phenomenon (such as bricks and wood) to another finite more general phenomenon (the house).

3) Because the line observes an inherent boundary of movement, as a movement in itself relative to other movements, the line exists as both an abstract and empirical phenomenon. Simple the movement of one empirical phenomenon from point A to point B necessitates not just the line as existing as a temporal entity, but the ability for the phenomenon to move at all existing because of this universal "form".

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:29 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:27 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:20 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:56 pm

Last time I checked “computer” was a human job title from the 1920s.

Alan Turing observer humans at work in order to formulate his theory of computation.

He abstracted the process. The piece of electronics on your desk is just an implementation of the Mathematics.
That exactly what it is a "word" or symbol representative the perspective of industrialization of its times. It is a temporal concept of the time, progressing

"from a Latin word “computare” which means to “to calculate” , “to count” , “to sum up” or “to think together”. So, more precisely the word computer mean s a "device that performs computation".

https://www.bing.com/search?q=origin+of ... 94B0529A29

Thus the nature of computing, observes laws of progressive movement which exist through but transcend the definition of and the act of "computing" itself.
It doesn’t observe any laws except recursion.

Is recursion a law or a pattern?
A law is a pattern of movement as the relation of one part to another; hence all laws are defined by linear relations. There are infinite laws as there are infinite patterns as all laws are the localization of movements within one reality. Even to take a perspective of everything a continual "parts"; still necessitates an "atomic point state" as the common 1 foundation for all being.

To argue any phenomenon as grounded in a recursive properties where forms exist through a "mirroring" or replicative state; necessitates that "form/function" is bound under a law of movement as movement that is self-referencing and progressive.

The problem necessitates an inherent nature of language as a means of definition. We can define language to equate to symbols, with all facets of abstract and empirical reality equating to symbols (hence language in themselves), but this does not escape the fact that language itself is subject to its own recursive properties. However this recursion results in a form of isomorphism; where language effectively mirrors itself as the reality in which it describes and vice versa thus reflecting the subject/object paradigm in modern science as not only problematic but effectively false in certain respects.

Logik
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:31 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:29 pm
A law is a pattern of movement as the relation of one part to another; hence all laws are defined by linear relations.
OK. And what's a pattern defined by?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:33 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:31 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:29 pm
A law is a pattern of movement as the relation of one part to another; hence all laws are defined by linear relations.
OK. And what's a pattern defined by?
Its projection to another pattern through time; hence linear.
Its connection to another pattern through time; hence linear.

Lines.

Logik
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:36 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:33 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:31 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:29 pm
A law is a pattern of movement as the relation of one part to another; hence all laws are defined by linear relations.
OK. And what's a pattern defined by?
Its projection to another pattern through time; hence linear.
Its connection to another pattern through time; hence linear.

Lines.
And what are lines defined by?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:41 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:36 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:33 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:31 pm

OK. And what's a pattern defined by?
Its projection to another pattern through time; hence linear.
Its connection to another pattern through time; hence linear.

Lines.
And what are lines defined by?
Lines, which is circular, thus necessitating a both recursion and isomorphism to be one and the same thing; a point of origin with the line and circular both composed of points, existing relativistically as points relative to smaller or greater phenomenon, and synthesizing as a point (circular is reduced to a dot when observed as infinite lines).

Logik
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:44 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:41 pm
a point of origin
What's a point defined by?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:45 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:44 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:41 pm
a point of origin
What's a point defined by?
"In Honor Of Philosophy Day I Present What Just Killed all Their Hard Work."
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25507

Logik
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:46 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:45 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:44 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:41 pm
a point of origin
What's a point defined by?
"In Honor Of Philosophy Day I Present What Just Killed all Their Hard Work."
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25507
I saw it. It's circular.

Your argument can be modelled in temporal logic.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:02 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:46 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:45 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:44 pm

What's a point defined by?
"In Honor Of Philosophy Day I Present What Just Killed all Their Hard Work."
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25507
I saw it. It's circular.

Your argument can be modelled in temporal logic.
Modelled, yes, limited to temporal logic, no.

It is also linear if you reread it.

Logik
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:06 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:02 pm
Modelled, yes, limited to temporal logic, no.

It is also linear if you reread it.
Completeness. It's a property of all logic systems.

Your system is incomplete. Because it's synthetic.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:09 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:06 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:02 pm
Modelled, yes, limited to temporal logic, no.

It is also linear if you reread it.
Completeness. It's a property of all logic systems.

Your system is incomplete. Because it's synthetic.
Actually it is complete as it is self-referencing and self defining where synthesis exists as both a process of recursion and isomorphism.

Logik
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:09 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:09 pm
Actually it is complete as it is self-referencing and self defining where synthesis exists as both a process of recursion and isomorphism.
Then it is also isomorphic to computation. What you are describing is called Turing-completeness.

It's isomorphic to the ALL class in complexity theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALL_(complexity)

That which synthesizes is called a 'generator'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generator ... ogramming)

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: All Problems are Rooted in Ideology and Intuition

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:27 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:09 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:09 pm
Actually it is complete as it is self-referencing and self defining where synthesis exists as both a process of recursion and isomorphism.
Then it is also isomorphic to computation. What you are describing is called Turing-completeness.

It's isomorphic to the ALL class in complexity theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALL_(complexity)

That which synthesizes is called a 'generator'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generator ... ogramming)
The argument contains what you provided above but is not limited to it as each "axiom" is a point of origin leading to further axioms simultaneously. All axioms are original and as such negated computation by an inherent element of spontaneity, which while resulting in chaos theory as each axiom can only be approximated, the axiom effectively come from "nothing" and as such cannot be computed.

All axioms are random, but randomness does not mean "disorder". While the formation of the axiom may effectively be spontaneous for a variety of reasons

a. Axiom A may variate into Axiom B by standard entropy/negentropy.

b. Axiom A may variate into Axiom B because Axiom B is an approximation of Axiom A in light of Axiom C. Axiom A is an approximation of some other axiom in light of Axiom C. Axiom A reversibly is an approximation of Axiom B and/or C. etc.

c. etc.

; the axiom results in further axioms; necessitating an inherent order where the axiom as "spontaneous" maintains corresponding axioms to which it connects and seperates from. All continuums inherently are "rational" as the composition of the continuum, as an axiom in itself, is composed of and composes further axioms.

What we deep fundamentally as "irrational" fundamentally is an absence of connection or a cessation in the continuum. In these respects "spontaneity" and "randomness" are irrational relative to the observer, but because they always contain a constant repitition of a "continuum" they are never truly irrational. There is no true irrational in light of space being the foundation axiom of all "being".

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