Principles vs Pragmatism

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:07 pm

Logic wrote:
Why do you need to be rigorous
Why do you need better evidence

Do you have a better argument than truth and knowledge for their own sake

Why is knowledge more valuable than ignorance

Why is truth better than a false illusion
Greater rigour and better evidence make for better science and understanding of the observable Universe
Another reason is that scientific knowledge can be used for the good of society [ so many examples of this ]

I think knowledge is sometimes more valuable than ignorance but not always
Equally I think truth is sometimes better than a false illusion but not always

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:08 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:07 pm
Logic wrote:
Why do you need to be rigorous
Why do you need better evidence

Do you have a better argument than truth and knowledge for their own sake

Why is knowledge more valuable than ignorance

Why is truth better than a false illusion
Greater rigour and better evidence make for better science and understanding of the observable Universe
Another reason is that scientific knowledge can be used for the good of society [ so many examples of this ]

I think knowledge is sometimes more valuable than ignorance but not always
Equally I think truth is sometimes better than a false illusion but not always
Why is good better than bad?

No matter where you start - you end up with morality!

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:12 pm

Logic wrote:
So clarity and precision for their own sake

Why is clarity and precision better than incoherence and imprecision
Clarity and precision are necessary to provide better understanding which might also benefit society
Incoherence and imprecision are the complete opposite of what is required for the scientific method

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:14 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:12 pm
Logic wrote:
So clarity and precision for their own sake

Why is clarity and precision better than incoherence and imprecision
Clarity and precision are necessary to provide better understanding which might also benefit society
Incoherence and imprecision are the complete opposite of what is required for the scientific method
You are justifying science (the systematic search for objective truths) with the “greater good” of society.

One would accuse you of being an objective moralist or something...

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:18 pm

Logic wrote:
Why is good better than bad

No matter where you start - you end up with morality
What is good and what is bad

You end up with morality because human beings are moral creatures
So then remove the moral imperative and they will no longer be moral
Just reverse the effect of evolutionary psychology of the last 200 000 years

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:21 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:18 pm
Logic wrote:
Why is good better than bad

No matter where you start - you end up with morality
What is good and what is bad

You end up with morality because human beings are moral creatures
So then remove the moral imperative and they will no longer be moral
Just reverse the effect of evolutionary psychology of the last 200 000 years
Ok, if morality is subjective and morality justifies the scientific values of precision, rigor, etc. Then science is subjective.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:23 pm

Logic wrote:
You are justifying science ( the systematic search for objective truths ) with the greater good of society
Not true because not all of scientific knowledge can be used for the greater good of society
And while scientists are moral beings science itself is amoral so is neither moral nor immoral

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:26 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:23 pm
Logic wrote:
You are justifying science ( the systematic search for objective truths ) with the greater good of society
Not true because not all of scientific knowledge can be used for the greater good of society
And while scientists are moral beings science itself is amoral so is neither moral nor immoral
Except science is funded by our taxes.

If science is not beneficial to me - why subsidize it?

Why finance other people’s need to know for their own knowledge’s sake?

If you aren’t going to be useful to society - why must we pay you a salary?

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:31 pm

Logic wrote:
if morality is subjective and morality justifies the scientific values of precision and rigor then science is subjective
Science is subjective but is actually done using a methodology that is designed to be as objective as possible
An objective methodology practised by subjective beings is essentially what science is far as I am concerned

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:38 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:31 pm
Logic wrote:
if morality is subjective and morality justifies the scientific values of precision and rigor then science is subjective
Science is subjective but is actually done using a methodology that is designed to be as objective as possible
An objective methodology practised by subjective beings is essentially what science is far as I am concerned
How do you design something to be “objective” when “objectivity” is just a concept?

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:54 pm

Logic wrote:
How do you design something to be objective when objectivity is just a concept ?
Objectivity is not just a concept for it can equally be a methodology or a process
The scientific method is an attempt to make methodology as rigorous as possible

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:06 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:54 pm
Logic wrote:
How do you design something to be objective when objectivity is just a concept ?
Objectivity is not just a concept for it can equally be a methodology or a process
The scientific method is an attempt to make methodology as rigorous as possible
You are stuck in a circularity.

How do you measure “rigour” and “objectivity”?

Is science 7/10 or 1/5000 on the “rigour” and objectivity scale?

How much rigour and objectivity is “possible”? How much is “enough”?

There is a golden rule in the world of management science: if you can’t measure it - you can’t manage it...

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:25 pm

Logic wrote:
How do you measure rigour and objectivity

Is science 7 / I0 or I / 5000 on the rigour and objectivity scale

How much rigour and objectivity is possible ? How much is enough
There is no such thing as the rigour and objectivity scale. You apply as much rigour and objectivity as is possible but that is never enough
Because an inductive discipline such as science only deals in probable truth not absolute truth [ except for null hypothesis / falsification ]
The rigour though improves over time as technology becomes more advanced as the quantity and quality of scientific knowledge increases

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:39 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:25 pm
There is no such thing as the rigour and objectivity scale.
Things are either objective or they aren't. That's a scale.
It goes from 0 (not objective) to 1 (objective)
Things are either rigorous or they aren't. That's a scale.
It goes from 0 (not rigorous) to 1 (rigorous)

For somebody who insists on precision your scales are very crude...
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:25 pm
Because an inductive discipline such as science only deals in probable truth not absolute truth [ except for null hypothesis / falsification ]
Well, then you are DEFINITELY not doing that. You say one thing but you do another.

Your scales are absolute. 0 or 1. There is no in-between. Not even a half-way mark...

surreptitious57
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Principles vs Pragmatism

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:52 pm

Logic wrote:
For somebody who insists on precision your scales are very crude
There is rigour and objectivity but there be no specific tool called a rigour and objectivity scale like you claimed
Rigour is a methodology rather than a scale and it is something that exists at every level of the scientific method
From observation to experimentation to replication to peer review - each one as brutal and as rigorous as possible
Taking testable hypothesis and subjecting them to absolute destruction - or as close as possible to - in order to gain scientific knowledge

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests