Judaka wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:54 am
What are you doing here then? Building a social consensus and talking strategy with all these "philosophers" who are too beneath you to talk with?
What kind of poker player shows his hand?
If it matters to you that much - figure it out.
Judaka wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:54 am
Objectivity is an endeavour, Logik, nobody is saying one can remove their biases, you can't read or choose not to. I never even said I aspire towards objectivity, you tell me you can't have a debate with me but isn't it just because you can't comprehend points and make counter-arguments? You haven't shown you can do it this whole thread.
OK, so it is an endeavour. Like making pancakes is an endeavour. As with any endeavour you could be moving closer or further away from your goal.
With any endeavour you could be moving towards success or towards failure.
Have you heard the phrase "If you can't measure it - you can't manage it"?
How do you endeavour to determine if you/me/us are becoming more or less objective? For all you know all this talk of objectivity is doing the exact opposite. How do you know we are headed in the right direction?
Judaka wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:54 am
LMAO. You don't have a solution or even the slightest idea of what can be done. HINT: It's because there is nothing, you are hoping by defining the problem someone else will give you a solution? You're going to die waiting.
And yet - here I am. Building things. Solving problems. Building consensus and moving forward with implementing solutions to "problems I don't have a clue how to solve or define".
The purpose of making problem-solving a social activity is SO that you are kept in the loop. To give you the the opportunity to contribute.
The human psyche tends to distrust things which emerge through a process they had no input into.
Judaka wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:54 am
If I was dealing with a reasonable person, then I have many options, I was pointing this out as a problem for you but given that you haven't even thought about solutions, clearly, it's too early for that.
You are dealing with a reasonable person. More than most.
If I was dealing with a competent pragmatist we would figure out a way forward.
We negotiate its meaning/definition. Allow it to emerge rather than prescribe it
Judaka wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:54 am
You're seriously asking me questions after your last few paragraphs?
Yes. I am asking your criteria for "functionality".
Logik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:29 am
In the end, you chose chest-beating despite what I said. As I promised, we'll both walk away thinking we won even though it's clear we both lost.
So you want me to manage you like a 3 year old instead?
Ok. I can do that.
So lets get back to "objectivity". I have scanned over the definition/synonyms you have given me:
impartiality, absence of bias/prejudice, fairness, fair-mindedness, equitableness, equitability, even-handedness, justness, justice, open-mindedness, disinterest, disinterestedness, detachment, dispassion, dispassionateness, neutrality
I can find no common pattern in there. And the image that emerges in my mind is self-contradictory and incoherent.
Fairness (an entirely subjective notion) used as a synonym of objectivity.
open-mindedness/neutrality/disinterest is the opposite of my conception of pragmatism.
open-mindedness is indifference is indecision the same as detachment and disinterest.
Pragmatism is all about making decisions. Which requires bias and subjective initiative and total attachment/immersion in problem-solving.
I have no fucking idea what to make of the fact that you call yourself a pragmatist while giving the definition of "objectivity" above!
As best as I can tell "objectivity" is a concept in your head, but you seem to be having a hard time communicating it.
If you can't measure it - you can't manage it!
If objectivity is being impartial: how do you know you are becoming more or less impartial?
If objectivity is being unbiased: how do you know you are becoming more or less biased?
If objectivity is being fair: how do you know you are becoming more or less fair?
If objectivity is being equitable: how do you know you are becoming more or less equitable?
If objectivity is being even-headed: how do you know you are becoming more or less even-headed?
If objectivity is being detached: how do you know you are becoming more or less detached?
A nihilist that doesn't recognise the relativism of ALL adjectives. The irony!
For the record: I don't expect you to come up with any better answer to what objectivity, fairness, unbiasedness, equitability and detachment are except "I know it when I see it".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it
So lets try my way: What is the value and utility you perceive in objectivity? What problem do you expect "objectivity" is going to solve?