ALL is an Illusion

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Veritas Aequitas
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ALL is an Illusion

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Everything in a way is an illusion.
But one can have reality-as-it-is within an encompassing illusion, i.e. venn diagram as in;
  • ILLUSION-A [reality-as-it-is]
ILLUSION-A is a main set while reality-as-it-is is the subset.

Within the subset of 'reality-as-it-is' there could be a sub-subset of illusions, i.e. illusion-B, e.g. bent-stick in water, rope-snake and the whole loads of sensual-illusions. Thus,
  • ILLUSION-A [reality {illusion-Bs} ]
The critical point here is to understand that reality-as-it-is is a subset.

So there is nothing 'out there' from reality-as-it-is, there is only the main set ILLUSION-A.
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bahman
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by bahman »

Illusion is subjected to destruction. Therefore you cannot have a reality which persist.
philosopher
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by philosopher »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 pm Illusion is subjected to destruction. Therefore you cannot have a reality which persist.
False.

It is an illusion that time pass equally whereever you are.
Einstein proved that when gravity is strong, the time slows down for you, then speeds up as gravity gets weaker.

Time differences may be very tiny here on Earth, but even if you were near a Black Hole, you woulnd't notice anything wierd about your time. Time will pass for you as it always did, but for observers outside they'd see time slowing down a lot.

This illusion of time persists and won't be destroyed.
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bahman
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by bahman »

philosopher wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:44 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 pm Illusion is subjected to destruction. Therefore you cannot have a reality which persist.
False.

It is an illusion that time pass equally whereever you are.
Einstein proved that when gravity is strong, the time slows down for you, then speeds up as gravity gets weaker.

Time differences may be very tiny here on Earth, but even if you were near a Black Hole, you woulnd't notice anything wierd about your time. Time will pass for you as it always did, but for observers outside they'd see time slowing down a lot.

This illusion of time persists and won't be destroyed.
Yes and no. Time is an illusion and it persists. It persists because it is sustained.
philosopher
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by philosopher »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:05 pm
philosopher wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:44 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 pm Illusion is subjected to destruction. Therefore you cannot have a reality which persist.
False.

It is an illusion that time pass equally whereever you are.
Einstein proved that when gravity is strong, the time slows down for you, then speeds up as gravity gets weaker.

Time differences may be very tiny here on Earth, but even if you were near a Black Hole, you woulnd't notice anything wierd about your time. Time will pass for you as it always did, but for observers outside they'd see time slowing down a lot.

This illusion of time persists and won't be destroyed.
Yes and no. Time is an illusion and it persists. It persists because it is sustained.
You can only destroy this illusion by either:
* Death
* Learn General Theory of Relativity.

The latter I believe, will still leave you with the sense of illusion of time, no matter how well you understand the theory.
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bahman
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by bahman »

philosopher wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:15 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:05 pm
philosopher wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:44 pm

False.

It is an illusion that time pass equally whereever you are.
Einstein proved that when gravity is strong, the time slows down for you, then speeds up as gravity gets weaker.

Time differences may be very tiny here on Earth, but even if you were near a Black Hole, you woulnd't notice anything wierd about your time. Time will pass for you as it always did, but for observers outside they'd see time slowing down a lot.

This illusion of time persists and won't be destroyed.
Yes and no. Time is an illusion and it persists. It persists because it is sustained.
You can only destroy this illusion by either:
* Death
* Learn General Theory of Relativity.

The latter I believe, will still leave you with the sense of illusion of time, no matter how well you understand the theory.
Time is need for the experience of change.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 pm Illusion is subjected to destruction. Therefore you cannot have a reality which persist.
Note "change is the only constant" therefore everything is "destroyed" eventually.
Since "change is the only constant" there is no reality which persists permanently.

Your theory 'a reality which persists' is an illusion itself.
You think there is 'a reality which persists' only relative to your limited life and sense of reality but not in relation to reality-as-it-is.

Humans live and survive within a reality-as-it-is but there is is no reality which persists and exists by itself independent of human conditions. Note Kant's argument there is no-thing-in-itself or reality-in-itself [noumenon or Ding an sich].

Note the critical point of the difference between ILLUSION-A and illusion-B.
ILLUSION-A is a transcendental illusion while illusion-B is related to the empirical.

An illusion occurs in the mind when one takes something to be objectively real when it is not the case, e.g. seeing a 'real' snake and get terrified when it is actually a real rope.
In another perspective a real rope is also an illusion in a way if we switch to an atomic perspective. In this case the 'real' rope is a real cluster of atoms. But this is still an empirical illusion.

Illusion-A occurs only in 3 instances, e.g.
  • 1. when one insist God is a real thing when there is no proofs for its existence as real.
    2. there is an independent mind or soul that exist independently within the person.
    3. there is a whole Universe created by an unproven God.
Why you are so desperate in insisting there is a reality-in-itself independent of the human conditions is due to your own human psychology related to an existential crisis.
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bahman
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:11 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 pm Illusion is subjected to destruction. Therefore you cannot have a reality which persist.
Note "change is the only constant" therefore everything is "destroyed" eventually.
Since "change is the only constant" there is no reality which persists permanently.

Your theory 'a reality which persists' is an illusion itself.
You think there is 'a reality which persists' only relative to your limited life and sense of reality but not in relation to reality-as-it-is.

Humans live and survive within a reality-as-it-is but there is is no reality which persists and exists by itself independent of human conditions. Note Kant's argument there is no-thing-in-itself or reality-in-itself [noumenon or Ding an sich].

Note the critical point of the difference between ILLUSION-A and illusion-B.
ILLUSION-A is a transcendental illusion while illusion-B is related to the empirical.

An illusion occurs in the mind when one takes something to be objectively real when it is not the case, e.g. seeing a 'real' snake and get terrified when it is actually a real rope.
In another perspective a real rope is also an illusion in a way if we switch to an atomic perspective. In this case the 'real' rope is a real cluster of atoms. But this is still an empirical illusion.

Illusion-A occurs only in 3 instances, e.g.
  • 1. when one insist God is a real thing when there is no proofs for its existence as real.
    2. there is an independent mind or soul that exist independently within the person.
    3. there is a whole Universe created by an unproven God.
Why you are so desperate in insisting there is a reality-in-itself independent of the human conditions is due to your own human psychology related to an existential crisis.
Just give me your model of change in illusion. Consider there are two states of affair X and Y. Change occurs from X to Y. Please analyse the change in details.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:46 am Everything in a way is an illusion.
But one can have reality-as-it-is within an encompassing illusion, i.e. venn diagram as in;
  • ILLUSION-A [reality-as-it-is]
ILLUSION-A is a main set while reality-as-it-is is the subset.

Within the subset of 'reality-as-it-is' there could be a sub-subset of illusions, i.e. illusion-B, e.g. bent-stick in water, rope-snake and the whole loads of sensual-illusions. Thus,
  • ILLUSION-A [reality {illusion-Bs} ]
The critical point here is to understand that reality-as-it-is is a subset.

So there is nothing 'out there' from reality-as-it-is, there is only the main set ILLUSION-A.
Q: Why do people always try and speak in terms of logic with symbols instead of proving a point by plugging in real world concepts?
Possible A: Because they're incapable? Or fear appearing a fool using invalid propositions and/or false conclusions?

Inquiring minds would like to know.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:25 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:11 am
bahman wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 pm Illusion is subjected to destruction. Therefore you cannot have a reality which persist.
Note "change is the only constant" therefore everything is "destroyed" eventually.
Since "change is the only constant" there is no reality which persists permanently.

Your theory 'a reality which persists' is an illusion itself.
You think there is 'a reality which persists' only relative to your limited life and sense of reality but not in relation to reality-as-it-is.

Humans live and survive within a reality-as-it-is but there is is no reality which persists and exists by itself independent of human conditions. Note Kant's argument there is no-thing-in-itself or reality-in-itself [noumenon or Ding an sich].

Note the critical point of the difference between ILLUSION-A and illusion-B.
ILLUSION-A is a transcendental illusion while illusion-B is related to the empirical.

An illusion occurs in the mind when one takes something to be objectively real when it is not the case, e.g. seeing a 'real' snake and get terrified when it is actually a real rope.
In another perspective a real rope is also an illusion in a way if we switch to an atomic perspective. In this case the 'real' rope is a real cluster of atoms. But this is still an empirical illusion.

Illusion-A occurs only in 3 instances, e.g.
  • 1. when one insist God is a real thing when there is no proofs for its existence as real.
    2. there is an independent mind or soul that exist independently within the person.
    3. there is a whole Universe created by an unproven God.
Why you are so desperate in insisting there is a reality-in-itself independent of the human conditions is due to your own human psychology related to an existential crisis.
Just give me your model of change in illusion. Consider there are two states of affair X and Y. Change occurs from X to Y. Please analyse the change in details.
Not sure of your points above.

I'll try;

Say there are two states of affairs.
Marble-A moving in one direction.
Marble-A knock into Marble-B.
Marble-A stop and Marble-B moves forward.

One can explain the above in terms of Newton's Law.

Generally it is said Marble-A caused the effect of Marble-B moving.
Hume will insist such a principle of cause and effect is illusory.
What had happened is due to psychological activities of customs, habit and constant conjunction within the mind of the person.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:58 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:46 am Everything in a way is an illusion.
But one can have reality-as-it-is within an encompassing illusion, i.e. venn diagram as in;
  • ILLUSION-A [reality-as-it-is]
ILLUSION-A is a main set while reality-as-it-is is the subset.

Within the subset of 'reality-as-it-is' there could be a sub-subset of illusions, i.e. illusion-B, e.g. bent-stick in water, rope-snake and the whole loads of sensual-illusions. Thus,
  • ILLUSION-A [reality {illusion-Bs} ]
The critical point here is to understand that reality-as-it-is is a subset.

So there is nothing 'out there' from reality-as-it-is, there is only the main set ILLUSION-A.
Q: Why do people always try and speak in terms of logic with symbols instead of proving a point by plugging in real world concepts?
Possible A: Because they're incapable? Or fear appearing a fool using invalid propositions and/or false conclusions?

Inquiring minds would like to know.
Re communication of ideas to the masses, it is more productive and efficient to reduce events to a formula with symbols.
If you understand the formulas you can always plug in real life examples or theoretical examples.

In the above model;

We are living in a real world that is empirically possible, empirically testable and verifiable.
Within this real world, humans are exposed to illusion-Bs, e.g. bent-stick in a glass of water, the whole range of illusions of the senses.

But theists are triggered by the mother of all illusions [ILLUSION-A] in believing the real world was created and maintained by a "real" God.
Majority of theists claim their God is really real but they are claiming such based on blind FAITH [99% no reason nor proofs]. They are believing in an ILLUSION-A and being delusional.

The above is represented as follows;
  • ILLUSION-A [reality {illusion-Bs} ]
There are other examples of ILLUSION-A but I will not go into their details at present.

Why theists are driven to believing in ILLUSION-A is due to the terrible psychological existential Angst within their mind/brain.
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JohnHermes
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by JohnHermes »

An illusion in the sense that the world is not all there is to see. We can obviously conclude that modern science proves everything is made out of energy. Energy existing on different frequencies. This physical universe can be seen as one octave or dimension.
Mankind perceives the world we know, in the terms we do, only because we share energetic uniformity and cohesion. We automatically attain these two conditions of energy in the course of our rearing. They are so taken for granted we do not realize their vital importance until we are faced with the possibility of perceiving worlds other than the world we know.
Don Juan Matus, the art of dreaming
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bahman
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:31 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:25 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:11 am
Note "change is the only constant" therefore everything is "destroyed" eventually.
Since "change is the only constant" there is no reality which persists permanently.

Your theory 'a reality which persists' is an illusion itself.
You think there is 'a reality which persists' only relative to your limited life and sense of reality but not in relation to reality-as-it-is.

Humans live and survive within a reality-as-it-is but there is is no reality which persists and exists by itself independent of human conditions. Note Kant's argument there is no-thing-in-itself or reality-in-itself [noumenon or Ding an sich].

Note the critical point of the difference between ILLUSION-A and illusion-B.
ILLUSION-A is a transcendental illusion while illusion-B is related to the empirical.

An illusion occurs in the mind when one takes something to be objectively real when it is not the case, e.g. seeing a 'real' snake and get terrified when it is actually a real rope.
In another perspective a real rope is also an illusion in a way if we switch to an atomic perspective. In this case the 'real' rope is a real cluster of atoms. But this is still an empirical illusion.

Illusion-A occurs only in 3 instances, e.g.
  • 1. when one insist God is a real thing when there is no proofs for its existence as real.
    2. there is an independent mind or soul that exist independently within the person.
    3. there is a whole Universe created by an unproven God.
Why you are so desperate in insisting there is a reality-in-itself independent of the human conditions is due to your own human psychology related to an existential crisis.
Just give me your model of change in illusion. Consider there are two states of affair X and Y. Change occurs from X to Y. Please analyse the change in details.
Not sure of your points above.

I'll try;

Say there are two states of affairs.
Marble-A moving in one direction.
Marble-A knock into Marble-B.
Marble-A stop and Marble-B moves forward.

One can explain the above in terms of Newton's Law.

Generally it is said Marble-A caused the effect of Marble-B moving.
Hume will insist such a principle of cause and effect is illusory.
What had happened is due to psychological activities of customs, habit and constant conjunction within the mind of the person.
Think of marble A knock into marble B. A was moving, consider this state as X, and then B moves, consider this state as Y. X causes Y. This means that X and Y coexist. This is logically impossible since two states of affair cannot coexist.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:38 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:31 am
bahman wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:25 pm
Just give me your model of change in illusion. Consider there are two states of affair X and Y. Change occurs from X to Y. Please analyse the change in details.
Not sure of your points above.

I'll try;

Say there are two states of affairs.
Marble-A moving in one direction.
Marble-A knock into Marble-B.
Marble-A stop and Marble-B moves forward.

One can explain the above in terms of Newton's Law.

Generally it is said Marble-A caused the effect of Marble-B moving.
Hume will insist such a principle of cause and effect is illusory.
What had happened is due to psychological activities of customs, habit and constant conjunction within the mind of the person.
Think of marble A knock into marble B. A was moving, consider this state as X, and then B moves, consider this state as Y. X causes Y. This means that X and Y coexist. This is logically impossible since two states of affair cannot coexist.
Re Yin-Yang,
State Y intrinsically has the the state of X.
Within Y there are already movements of atoms and electrons just as X is movement.
Thus the two states co-exist.

Note for example, states of H20, steam, water, ice are co-existing along a continuum.
The following are the co-existing states, e.g.
  • 1. 100% water 0% ice
    2. 99.9999 water 0.0001 ice then
    3. 99% water, 1% ice
    .....
    4. 1% water, 99% ice
    5. 0.0001% water 99.999% ice
    6. 0.% water 100 ice.
In the above case the absolute 0% is impossible thus the two states are always in co-existence in various degrees combination within a continuum.

Btw, note the critical underlying psychology reasons involved in the above transitions and co-existence. To me, that psychology as a function of reality is more important than the theory above.
Atla
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Re: ALL is an Illusion

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:46 am Everything in a way is an illusion.
But one can have reality-as-it-is within an encompassing illusion, i.e. venn diagram as in;
  • ILLUSION-A [reality-as-it-is]
ILLUSION-A is a main set while reality-as-it-is is the subset.

Within the subset of 'reality-as-it-is' there could be a sub-subset of illusions, i.e. illusion-B, e.g. bent-stick in water, rope-snake and the whole loads of sensual-illusions. Thus,
  • ILLUSION-A [reality {illusion-Bs} ]
The critical point here is to understand that reality-as-it-is is a subset.

So there is nothing 'out there' from reality-as-it-is, there is only the main set ILLUSION-A.
The misleading perception in the head is objectively there, it's just misleading. Saying "all is illusion" is one of the most backwards, nonsensical views ever invented.
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