Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

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Veritas Aequitas
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Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

In this post and many others,
viewtopic.php?p=385656#p385656

'Age' insisted,
"I do NOT have any beliefs"

As I understand, what is 'belief' is as follows
Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty. Another way of defining belief sees it as a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.
Surely all normal humans have beliefs that something is likely to be true. Even mad people are likely to have their own beliefs of truths which could be questionable.

The next level to beliefs is the question whether the beliefs are Justified True Beliefs [JTB].

I believe Ages' insistence "I do NOT have any beliefs" is absurd.

Views?
surreptitious57
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by surreptitious57 »

I cannot speak for Age but as I have already said I have no belief in anything at all and so I avoid using the word entirely
To believe something is to presume its truth without any evidence or proof and nothing I know of fits this criteria for me
And so without there being some justification for a presumption there is no reason why it should be held in any capacity
Nick_A
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by Nick_A »

Why is it that so often the young boy who believes in nothing needs a young girl to believe in him?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

surreptitious57 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:04 am I cannot speak for Age but as I have already said I have no belief in anything at all and so I avoid using the word entirely
To believe something is to presume its truth without any evidence or proof and nothing I know of fits this criteria for me
And so without there being some justification for a presumption there is no reason why it should be held in any capacity
Note 'belief' [as defined above] is not 'faith'.

Note I wrote this in another post;

If you don't have any BELIEFS, then what you have are lies, opinion, and falsehoods in your mind.

In other posts I have presented and justified the continuum from;
1. Opinions - purely subjective thoughts; truth/objectivity % = 0.001 to
2. Beliefs - personally justified opinions; truth/objectivity % = 1-49% to
3. Knowledge - shared justified beliefs ; truth/objectivity % = 51 - 99%


Beliefs are 'personal truths' with only personal conviction.
What is true to you personally based on your personal experiences and justifications/argument may or may not qualify as a fully [51-99%] objective truth.
For a personal belief to qualify as Justified True Belief, the personal belief must be subject to extensive tests and verification within an agreed Framework and System. This is how Science convert personal beliefs to objective scientific knowledge.

For example when Einstein proved his own theory on paper [theoretically] he had a personal conviction of his own proven truth, i.e. his personal belief but that is only confined to himself.
Einstein personal belief needed to be agreed by others and proven in practice empirically before his belief qualify as scientific knowledge, i.e. as Justified True Belief.

If you agree with Einstein's Theory of Relativity, that is only your personal belief and confidence in that shared justified knowledge.

Thus you cannot deny you don't have any beliefs.
surreptitious57
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by surreptitious57 »

I define belief as anything lacking sufficient evidence or proof that would qualify it as knowledge
I dont class opinions as beliefs because they are not as rigorous so belong in a separate category
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

surreptitious57 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:35 am I define belief as anything lacking sufficient evidence or proof that would qualify it as knowledge
I dont class opinions as beliefs because they are not as rigorous so belong in a separate category
I have already differentiated 'opinion' from 'belief' and 'knowledge' in the above continuum.

Your definition of belief is the same as what I have defined above.
Point is you cannot deny you don't have beliefs because all human beings have been programmed to have beliefs to facilitate survival especially in case of doubts that are likely to be a threat to one's life.

The general rule to survival is, even if there is insufficient evidence or proof, in case of doubt of a potential threat, it is safer to believe the threat is true and taking appropriate actions rather than dismissing it and face possible death.

This is what our successful ancestors did.
When our ancestors went on a hunt in the bushes, and if they heard the sound of a broken twig, they believe in the presence of a sable-toothed tiger and the run for cover even when there is no clear evidence [proof] there is a tiger.
Those who ran and take cover were likely to survive while those who ignored the potential threat had a greater chance of being killed by a real sable-toothed tiger.
Thus 'belief' even without sufficient evidence has survival value.

You cannot deny you do not have BELIEFS because beliefs are inherent in all humans.
Atla
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by Atla »

Age seems to believe that he has access to "universe knowledge", some sort of absolutely certain knowledge coming from the universe/Allah/whatever. All he has to do is pay attention and receive this knowledge. So half the time he thinks he isn't even communicating his own thoughts, he's merely channeling the universe. And he thinks this isn't a belief, since this knowledge isn't his own. :)
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:56 am Age seems to believe that he has access to "universe knowledge", some sort of absolutely certain knowledge coming from the universe/Allah/whatever. All he has to do is pay attention and receive this knowledge. So half the time he thinks he isn't even communicating his own thoughts, he's merely channeling the universe. And he thinks this isn't a belief, since this knowledge isn't his own. :)
I think so.

I believe the problem with Age's approach is his inability to discuss in terms of the relevant perspective.
In the conventional perspective, one cannot deny I do not have any BELIEFS at all.

When one shift into another perspective to insist that one do not have any BELIEFs one could be thinking in terms of la la land, e.g. from a God.
or
It could be DAM's no-I. Since no-I there no one to believe in anything.

The Buddhist and some others do believe and achieving a state of nothing_ness and emptiness but that is always in complementary with beliefs [Justified True Beliefs] not faith.
Atla
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:23 am
Atla wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:56 am Age seems to believe that he has access to "universe knowledge", some sort of absolutely certain knowledge coming from the universe/Allah/whatever. All he has to do is pay attention and receive this knowledge. So half the time he thinks he isn't even communicating his own thoughts, he's merely channeling the universe. And he thinks this isn't a belief, since this knowledge isn't his own. :)
I think so.

I believe the problem with Age's approach is his inability to discuss in terms of the relevant perspective.
In the conventional perspective, one cannot deny I do not have any BELIEFS at all.

When one shift into another perspective to insist that one do not have any BELIEFs one could be thinking in terms of la la land, e.g. from a God.
or
It could be DAM's no-I. Since no-I there no one to believe in anything.

The Buddhist and some others do believe and achieving a state of nothing_ness and emptiness but that is always in complementary with beliefs [Justified True Beliefs] not faith.
Well, Age seems to be convinced that we have the wrong approach, since we aren't paying attention to the "universe knowledge", even though it's available to us too. He's here to expose this shortcoming of ours, maybe teach us how to do it.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:03 am Note 'belief' [as defined above] is not 'faith'.
If you have no objective solution to the Munchhausen trillema and the problem of criterion then you have no grounds on which you can differentiate belief from faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münchhausen_trilemma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_the_criterion
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:03 am For a personal belief to qualify as Justified True Belief, the personal belief must be subject to extensive tests and verification within an agreed Framework and System.
Tomorrow humanity may or may not go extinct.

This claim meets the JTB criterion.
It will survive any and all testing in ANY framework you come up with. For eternity.

If that is knowledge - I will gladly trade it for toilet paper.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

TimeSeeker wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:02 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:03 am Note 'belief' [as defined above] is not 'faith'.
If you have no objective solution to the Munchhausen trillema and the problem of criterion then you have no grounds on which you can differentiate belief from faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münchhausen_trilemma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_the_criterion
The above are based on the quest for the absolutely absolute truth which is an impossibility.

My differentiation between 'belief' and 'faith' above is based on some pre-agreed defined Framework and System.
For example scientific truths can be shared but only conditioned upon a pre-agreed Scientific Framework and System.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:03 am For a personal belief to qualify as Justified True Belief, the personal belief must be subject to extensive tests and verification within an agreed Framework and System.
Tomorrow humanity may or may not go extinct.

This claim meets the JTB criterion.
This claim will survive any and all scientific and empirical testing in ANY framework you come up with. For eternity.

If that is knowledge - I will gladly trade it for toilet paper.
There are degrees to knowledge.

"Tomorrow humanity may or may not go extinct" is speculative knowledge extrapolated from various JTBs. I cannot say that is impossible.
The point is it cannot be tested for verification purposes, i.e. if humanity is extinct which human is to report in it as knowledge.
In terms degree of JTB from 1 [low] to 100[high] I would rate that at 10/100. This is more like justified beliefs rather than 99% JTB.

For example,
I predict there are human-like aliens existing in a planet a billion+ light years away.
This is justified beliefs because such a proposition is empirically possible but to verify it to be JTB proper is not likely at present.

Faith [100%] is totally different from beliefs because what is claimed via faith is an impossibility to be proven since the point is moot in the first place, e.g. God is an impossibility to be real, thus moot.
TimeSeeker
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by TimeSeeker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:47 am The above are based on the quest for the absolutely absolute truth which is an impossibility.
Not absolute truth. ANY truth. "Truth" is a notion that exists only in the context of a logic SYSTEM!
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:47 am My differentiation between 'belief' and 'faith' above is based on some pre-agreed defined Framework and System.
For example scientific truths can be shared but only conditioned upon a pre-agreed Scientific Framework and System.
In the absence of a pre-agreed framework what framework do use to agree on the framework which we ought to use?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:03 am "Tomorrow humanity may or may not go extinct" is speculative knowledge extrapolated from various JTBs. I cannot say that is impossible.
The point is it cannot be tested for verification purposes, i.e. if humanity is extinct which human is to report in it as knowledge.

In terms degree of JTB from 1 [low] to 100[high] I would rate that at 10/100. This is more like justified beliefs rather than 99% JTB.
It is NOT speculative. It is 100% certain, objective fact (as per the system in use today - logic + evidence). From the law of the excluded middle (p ∧ ¬p) is always true.

Humanity MAY or MAY NOT be extinct.

I am reporting it. RIGHT NOW! It WILL be true tomorrow.

Can you think of any scenario where my claim is false?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:03 am For example,
I predict there are human-like aliens existing in a planet a billion+ light years away.
This is justified beliefs because such a proposition is empirically possible but to verify it to be JTB proper is not likely at present.
False equivalence.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:03 am Faith [100%] is totally different from beliefs because what is claimed via faith is an impossibility to be proven since the point is moot in the first place, e.g. God is an impossibility to be real, thus moot.
Unsubstantiated argument.
surreptitious57
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by surreptitious57 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Point is you cannot deny you dont have beliefs because all human beings have been programmed to
have beliefs to facilitate survival especially in case of doubts that are likely to be a threat to ones life
This argument is fallacious because there are currently no beliefs that I need to have in order to protect my life
I survive perfectly well without any at all so they are from that perspective and any other entirely unnecessary
TimeSeeker
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by TimeSeeker »

surreptitious57 wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:10 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Point is you cannot deny you dont have beliefs because all human beings have been programmed to
have beliefs to facilitate survival especially in case of doubts that are likely to be a threat to ones life
This argument is fallacious because there are currently no beliefs that I need to have in order to protect my life
I survive perfectly well without any at all so they are from that perspective and any other entirely unnecessary
The philosophical notion of belief (or the idea that you can express your thoughts verbally) is moronic.

If you adopt a behaviourist approach (in line with science) then what you SAY you are going to do doesn't matter. What you DO DO matters.

Christian. Believes in God. Breaks leg. Goes to hospital.
Atheist. Doesn't believe in God. Breaks leg. Goes to hospital too.

Christian. Believes in God. Goes to Church and prays on Sunday.
Atheist. Doesn't believe in God. Goes to Yoga classes and meditation.

Christian. Believes in God. Prays regularly to verbalise problems.
Atheist. Doesn't believe in God. Goes to therapy to vent frustration.

Christian. Believes in God. Sees a social problem. Broadcasts pleas for help via group prayer.
Atheist. Doesn't believe in god. Sees a social problem. Broadcasts plea for help via Facebook or other social networks.

It's not about the contents of your mind! It's about your rituals. The 'god' thing is an epiphenomenon. A red herring.
What you think doesn't matter in practice if it doesn't translate into action. And if it doesn't translate into action - it has no measurable effect on broader reality.
surreptitious57
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Re: Age: "I do NOT have any beliefs"

Post by surreptitious57 »

TimeSeeker wrote:
What you think doesnt matter in practice if it doesnt translate into action
And if it doesnt translate into action - it has no measurable effect on broader reality
All conscious actions [ even apparently instinctive or spontaneous ones ] will be preceded by thoughts that will make them happen
These thoughts may not not be as fundamental as those of belief but the law of cause [ thought ] and effect [ action ] still applies
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