WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

For all things philosophical.

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Age
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Age » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:56 pm

Mortalsfool wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:34 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:40 pm
Mortalsfool wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:52 am
After quite a few years obsessing over the only real question philosophy ponders, "why?", I've arrived to an answer that rewards my quest. I'll share, for what it's worth; the establishment of a universal language.

If, there is a God, and he/she/it created all that exists, I presume it likely that there is indeed a purpose for our existence. Any such 'purpose' would not be confined to the shadows, instead, it would exist as an observable phenomenon. It would show its prominence in a wake of noticeable influence in mankind's progression. Nothing has done this more than the development of words and language! Our skill at using words and forming analogies, has enabled us, not only to understand the world we live in, but to share our ideas and views. Not only of reality, but those things that are of the mind. Things without which we would still be gathering fruit with our tribes. So I accepted the development of a language as being the purpose of our life experience.
Having accepted that, I had to consider the other question, "how and why could such a thing be needed?"

I came up with a purpose that satisfied me, by questioning, "What disadvantage would a person suffer if they arrived in the next life, not possessing the value life's purpose tried to teach?" The only way that I could do this was by imagining some form of poetic justice, in which one person enters afterlife, with the advantage and one does not.

I hate to use the extremes, but it shouldn't matter to an atheist anyway, if I say that he arrives in whatever afterlife faces us, with great disadvantage.

Imagine the fairness of a poetic justice that could decree, "Since you didn't believe in afterlife, you still have it, but you will carry no memory of your past life!" Fair! Nothing taken, chosen, possibly. No words, no memories with which to build analogies, no imagery to put in perspective things beyond our present imaginations. Even that which is unimaginable to us now, is not beyond the descriptive powers words possess. I accept that life is no more than a primer for a universal language.


Is there something unimaginable to you now?
Mortalsfool wrote: I believe there is not!
Okay, because there is no doubt to the question IF there is some Thing that created all that exists, but WHAT is the name that we want to give to that Thing that created all that exists. Once that is agreed upon, then discovering the purpose for existence is much easier.

Age
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Age » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:58 pm

Mortalsfool wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:50 pm
Belinda wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:18 pm
Mortalsfool wrote:
If, there is a God, and he/she/it created all that exists, I presume it likely that there is indeed a purpose for our existence.
The creator doesn't necessarily purpose anything. The creator may be a mathematical formula.
Mortalsfool wrote: Mathematical formulas are designed to accomplish very specific purposes, are they not? That's why I included the word "it", afterlife may indeed be no more than some natural occurrence which we're not familiar with, perhaps even some trans-formative algorithm.
The 'afterlife' IS of course a simply natural occurrence. It, naturally, could not be any other way.

Mortalsfool
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Mortalsfool » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:16 am

Age wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:56 pm
Mortalsfool wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:34 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:40 pm


Is there something unimaginable to you now?



Okay, because there is no doubt to the question IF there is some Thing that created all that exists, but WHAT is the name that we want to give to that Thing that created all that exists. Once that is agreed upon, then discovering the purpose for existence is much easier.
Age, I thought about your question. But, it seems to me that seeking that very answer is the crux of the entire religious world's problems. We seem to think that if we can fathom the name of the the true God, we will somehow be closer to his higher status. Now, since we are human and every one of us wants to be right, we will barrage people with dogma, entice them with rhetoric, woo them with mystery, and if all else fails, kill em!

Your statement "Once that is agreed upon", is impossible for our humanity to manage. Hell, we can't even agree on what sex we are. As far back as we can go in history we see that people's decided, it's a lot easier to kill those that disagree, then convert them.

And I have to ask, how would our agreeing on such a Name aid us in discovering the purpose of existence?

Age
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Age » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:44 pm

Mortalsfool wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:16 am

Age, I thought about your question. But, it seems to me that seeking that very answer is the crux of the entire religious world's problems. We seem to think that if we can fathom the name of the the true God, we will somehow be closer to his higher status.
First mistake in working out what some thing REALLY IS, is making an assumption, about WHAT it IS.

There is NO 'his' in relation to the Thing that created EVERY thing.

I CERTAINLY do NOT think THAT, what you ASSUMED here. If 'YOU' think: "if we can fathom the name of the true God, ..." But from that thought you ALSO assume 'WE' think that, then this will lead you astray, even BEFORE you BEGIN.

'You' may think some things but this does NOT mean 'we' do also.
Mortalsfool wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:16 am
Now, since we are human and every one of us wants to be right,
But young human beings do NOT want to be right. They just look at, and SEE what IS.
Mortalsfool wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:16 am
we will barrage people with dogma, entice them with rhetoric, woo them with mystery, and if all else fails, kill em!

YES, that is EXACTLY WHAT you, adult human beings do, and have been doing. For quite some while now also, I might add.
Mortalsfool wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:16 am
Your statement "Once that is agreed upon", is impossible for our humanity to manage.
Are YOU absolutely SURE?

If you are, then there is ABSOLUTELY NO USE discussing this anymore.
Mortalsfool wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:16 am
Hell, we can't even agree on what sex we are. As far back as we can go in history we see that people's decided, it's a lot easier to kill those that disagree, then convert them.
Is that what YOU ALL did with ALL of YOUR children? After all, ALL children disagree with their parents/care givers as some points in their lives, correct?

Be very, very careful HOW you answer this question, because, if you answer one way, then you might actually be in AGREEMENT with EVERY one else, and you just said that that is impossible. And, if you answer the other way, then just maybe you will see that 'converting', or more correctly 'TRYING TO convert', those who disagree is really much more a natural tendency for human beings IS, then killing is.

We will wait and see?
Mortalsfool wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:16 am
And I have to ask, how would our agreeing on such a Name aid us in discovering the purpose of existence?
Because when WHAT the true Creator ACTUALLY IS is discovered, that is when that Name is finally known, then what It's purpose of, and for, existence actually IS, is also SEEN and understood, and thus the PURPOSE becomes KNOWN, in and of itself.

In other words, instead of just assuming what God IS or COULD BE, and just finding out what its real Name is (the actual Thing), then discovering purpose falls into place.

But things like this can be and only ARE discovered through curiosity and agreement, not assumptions and disagreements.

You seem, somewhat curious here, I would like to try something with you, if that is okay with you.

What is the ONLY thing you can think of that Creates EVERY thing?

Remember it is NOT possible to Create ALL things some time ago, as new things are being Created right NOW. So, whatever Created EVERY thing means that It is still Creating right NOW.

Do NOT assume what It is, but just imagine out of ALL the things there are, WHAT is the ONLY One thing that is Creating right HERE and NOW?

Once you can SEE that Thing, which already has a Name, and KNOW that EVERY one else will be in agreement with you, then the Purpose of Existence also comes to light, and IS KNOWN too.

Ferdi
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Ferdi » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:24 am

In simple terms, we are here because our parents mated fruitfully. It led to our birth in our parents’ environment on planet earth.
However, the 19 pages of comments show that we are somewhat like lost sheep.I may as well add mine about a possible objective for life. None of us have asked to be born, our parents caused us to be here and as we grew up, we found ourselves to belong to the human race in some place on planet Earth. We have an intellect, health, and talents or lack thereof. Our environment provides opportunities and hurdles in competition with other lives. Life is driven by the need for food and water. It is noteworthy that we and many other animals, eat vegetables and kill other animals for meat.
I have been on planet earth now for more than 9 decades, lived among 3 different civilisations on 2 sides of the planet, found that the rule of the jungle prevails. Mankind is ruled by greed, with legal systems to suit; cartels may be illegal but globally OPEC is at the top of the pecking order.
Our intellect makes us question things. The mighty power of nature led our forefathers to invent a variety of Gods which they tried to appease with offerings. I was been born in a Catholic environment. As a migrant it made me feel “at home” in any Catholic church; religions provide moral guidelines and their well-meaning preachers are spruiking their holy books. I have been fully occupied with earning our daily bread and studying to improve my earnings; had no time to question my religion until 1984 when the plethora of religions, their Holy-wars and the earthly-wealth of the Catholic Church made me wonder about the ruling clique in Rome. I stopped going to church.
Now some more decades wiser, the deteriorating body reminds me that the end is coming closer and I wonder indeed: what comes hereafter? I do not expect to be confronted by a God. I have come to my conclusion that ”life” in any creature is simply “on-loan” from the UNIVERSE, It is relevant to note that we can see when life enters at birth and when life departs on death but we cannot see where it comes from and (logically) will return to. We are free to believe whatever we like, but we do not “know” what the source is of all life. We know that we are in the UNIVERSE of “infinite” dimensions, an abstract concept, intrinsically “beyond” our comprehension. I get an inkling of it by trying to visualise both infinitely far and infinitely miniscule beyond our dimensions. Space just “is”, here and everywhere, penetrating everything, no beginning, no end, eternal. It makes me suggest that every life comes from and returns to infinity, which is space, right here, penetrates all, has no bounds. When I die, my personality departs from my body which becomes a lifeless corpse that will start to decompose; best be disposed of in whatever way, I will be beyond caring. My being, my conscience and my LIFE will at the instant of death have stopped to be part of planet earth. Common sense has it that but my life will go back to where it came from at my birth, from where all life comes: the Universe, the space in which we are.
Do I believe that there is a reason for having existed? I do not know, we do not know, it is simply beyond us, but may be, at that very instant of death, when one has returned to the infinity of the Universe, that the infinite view reveals and makes one judge instantly, and objectively, one’s “own slate” revealing one’s earthly life, run by one’s free will, capabilities, talents and handicaps. In such way one ultimately judges oneself and be in a self assessed “heaven of content” or “hell of disgust”.
Rest assured that such earthly concepts are unlikely to exist in INFINITY.

Belinda
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Belinda » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:09 pm

Ferdi wrote:
-----my life will go back to where it came from at my birth, from where all life comes: the Universe, the space in which we are.
Each of our life durations will remain necessary to change itself, and our life durations could not have been otherwise than they were. The chemical substances that comprise our mind-brains and bodies proper can't be otherwise than they were, are, and will be. All of you and the duration of your former lifespan will last as long as the Earth lasts, at least.When you cease to be Ferdi It won't matter to you that you are no longer conscious and, unless you are a famous person, it won't matter very long to anyone else that you are no longer conscious.

Ferdi
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Ferdi » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:41 am

Re Belinda’s, I’m not clear what you’re driving at? Any life can stop any moment by any of various causes. The chemistry in a body relates to whatever has been fed into it, via whatever orifices. Any creature’s individuality departs from our presence at its death, regardless of its reputation.

melancocky
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by melancocky » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:26 pm

To the OP, thank you for asking the real questions. Let me offer just one of my many different perspectives, just to keep things simple for now.

Science says that 14 billion years ago, there was nothing. Then there was stuff and specific rules for the stuff to follow. And eventually, that stuff arranged into me and you. How could nothing beget stuff? I believe it cannot. Therefore, I believe there was something beyond this so-called "beginning." I'll call it "higher reality" for now. That higher reality is a complete mystery. It might be impossible to know it. Maybe none of our faculties can help us find out. Maybe we may never be able to know during this experience we call "life." I certainly have not found this truth, as of yet.

All I know is... I have to do my best right now to make myself more physically, mentally, and emotionally in order. So right now, I work toward those responsibilities, and I have faith that I may find metaphysical truth in time. You could say that getting your world in order is your purpose, until you truly have time to contemplate deep reality. And we could all use some more order in our lives.

Belinda
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Belinda » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:55 pm

Ferdi wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:41 am
Re Belinda’s, I’m not clear what you’re driving at? Any life can stop any moment by any of various causes. The chemistry in a body relates to whatever has been fed into it, via whatever orifices. Any creature’s individuality departs from our presence at its death, regardless of its reputation.
I agree. My point is that when the dust became upright and walked about as Ferdi,or as Belinda, it became more of an agent for change than it was when it was disordered dust. I could say similarly about any dog, or any wild mouse. Change, whether conceived as differentiated events or not, is such that the past causes the future to happen as it does happen. True, the future is chaotic such that what happens may be improbable nevertheless the future is limited to what is possible. Ferdi, and Belinda, happened and cannot un-happen therefore if there is eternity we are eternal like every other past event.

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henry quirk
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Along with ass-kickin' & bubblegum chewin'...

Post by henry quirk » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:25 pm

...we're here to move heat around and transmit information (via jizz & eggs).

Every- and any-thing else is idiosyncratic (subjective).

Ferdi
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Ferdi » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:57 am

Yes melancocky “life” is the key. Any who found themselves indoctrinated to believe that some “god’ or whatever is the creator can hold such god responsible for good and evil, not us. Live and let live, run for cover when it rains.

Re Belinda : indeed dog and any creatures may have life in it, also comes and returns to the infinite space in which we are floating sucked to our planet by its gravitational force. There must be a god-of-gravity.

Re Quirk : thermals and thunder, our atmosphere.

melancocky
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by melancocky » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:42 am

Ferdi wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:57 am
Yes melancocky “life” is the key. Any who found themselves indoctrinated to believe that some “god’ or whatever is the creator can hold such god responsible for good and evil, not us. Live and let live, run for cover when it rains.
Hmmm well, if there is a grand designer and he gave us free will, then he is not responsible for good and evil in ACTION. We are. He is responsible only for creating the POTENTIAL for good and evil. What do you think of that?

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henry quirk
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"Re Quirk : thermals and thunder, our atmosphere."

Post by henry quirk » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:41 pm

The whole friggin' universe is an exercise in moving heat around (part of Crom's A/C).

Ferdi
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by Ferdi » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:51 am

Re melancocky. Ifs and buts are useful to seek an answer. Any designer is inherently responsible for his/her creation.

A possible designer, creator of the universe is beyond my comprehension. With my mere human mind I question the logic of first creating a large lump of matter and then blowing it apart into a random number of smaller lumps. We are very familiar with the one on which we have found ourselves to have been born and we are aware of celestial objects in our solar system. We live on planet earth, on the hard outer crust of a ball with a hot molten core which makes it bursting at some seams, causing earthquakes and erupting volcanoes. We are surrounded by an atmosphere, heated by the sun which evaporates water from oceans of salt-water, heats the air, causes it to rise, producing clouds, wind, rain, thunder, lightning, floods and storms. With our human intelligence we judge the scenery, some of it is beautiful indeed, some is ugly and some is cruel. Humans have the superior intellect of our planet’s population with animals large and small. Our inquisitive instinct has made us ask why things are so and we invented “gods” as a ready cause for any “natural” events. It took us a while to get into science and learn that most events have natural explanations, not god-driven unless one has been brought-up to so believe by indoctrination. Honest beliefs need not be ignored but indoctrination is hard to overcome. Just like we hold ourselves responsible for our actions, I hold any designer responsible for its creations and if there were a creator of such calibre as required for the infinite universe, surely such creative mind would have foresight about conflicts created by free wills and by our ability to kill.

I have wondered many times why we can readily kill, remove life but we cannot insert life. It does not make sense to reserve installing life to a creator while making killing so easy. We are so clever, can walk on the moon, and venture even further into space but meanwhile we are so dumb as to just leave the discarded parts floating around in space, apart from the waste and plastic in so called “civilised” areas.

The concepts of infinity, space, life and why are beyond our comprehension but one thing is becoming clear (says he who has placed 4 children in this world, which led to 7 grand children and 5 great grand children, sofar): WE MUST STOP BREEDING AND MUST CONTROL OUR POLLUTION.
This is where the news media, Journalists carry a large responsibility. They thrive on making news headlines. They ought to highlight facts and expose lies. E.g. take global pollution, coal is blamed but coal is not the polluter, WE are! Anyone who simply lights a fire, be it in a barbeque or a steam loco or coal fired power-station. The basic combustion process is simple, costs little, is thus very profitable on a commercial scale. The industry is well aware of cleaner combustion methods but that takes money, reduces some company profits. The company will tell the news media that its shareholders don’t want their dividends reduced; easily understood by all. The news media will not highlight that any well-run company would keep its methods efficient and up-to-date. The news media FAIL to publish that the voting power in large public companies is NOT held by private individuals but by other large companies whose intertwined Boards of Directors will direct the votes to best suit their own pockets. Greed (designer of the Universe fault) has made pollution to be a global threat.
Back to inventing the creation in the infinity of the universe beyond our comprehension. Looking backwards along the exponential increase of our global population we can see that indeed just one couple could have started the human chain. Where could the first human have come from ? Looking at the whole animal-, micro-, celestial-, science-world, etc., it seems feasible that natural matter could have formed somehow from gaseous, to liquid and on to solid, somewhere (does “where” apply?) in an infinity of space. In due course (due?) compatible (electrostatic, magnetic?) matter met, from which forms and shapes developed. Similar to our law-of-the-jungle amongst living matter, the strongest particulate matter formed first, pulled together by forces to develop into what we call (primitive)“live” matter, but such label is irrelevant from a “infinite” viewpoint. Life IS, no beginning, no end, not made of matter, beyond our comprehension in the universe. Life must sense when a growing new body is ready to start its independent existence, it enters that new body, a new individual is born.
Within a decade or so I will be out of the way in infinity, but watch-out, infinity includes the space in which you may still reside.
IMO: if there were an Almighty designer, such designer would unlikely have created so many misfits and conflicting situations. One thing is beyond my doubt: We will all find out in due course.

seeds
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Re: WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

Post by seeds » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:08 pm

Ferdi wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:51 am
IMO: if there were an Almighty designer, such designer would unlikely have created so many misfits and conflicting situations.
And what if the existence of “misfits and conflicting situations” were all necessary in helping to make the design work properly?
Ferdi wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:51 am
One thing is beyond my doubt: We will all find out in due course.
How so?

How will we find out?
_______

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