Ptolemy, Copernicus, Secularism, and Universalism

[Nick_A]

The Copernican Revolution was the paradigm shift from the Ptolemaic model of the heavens, which described the cosmos as having Earth stationary at the center of the universe, to the heliocentric model with the Sun at the center of the Solar System.

It dawned on me that we are at the beginning of a paradigm shift from earthly Secularism to Universalism. Secularism is like the Ptolemaic model with the earth and society at the center of “meaning.” I believe the gradual awakening to Universalism will be the gradual awakening to Man’ being revolving around the sun (Son.) The source of Man’s objective meaning is not the earth but rather the level of the Son.

It may take 100 years to collectively arrive at the concept presuming we survive the horrors we are apparently destined for

Just think: the Earth as part of the solar system revolves around the sun. The sun in turn revolves around its place in the Milky Way. The Milky Way in turn revolves around the cycle of galaxies and the galaxies revolve around the Source of the universe. Our universe revolves around the source of multiverses. Multiverse revolves around the Absolute.

How insulting for all those believing they are the center of universal meaning and purpose as opposed to just a small part of an inconceivable process.

[Eodnhoj7]

The Copernican Revolution was the paradigm shift from the Ptolemaic model of the heavens, which described the cosmos as having Earth stationary at the center of the universe, to the heliocentric model with the Sun at the center of the Solar System.

It dawned on me that we are at the beginning of a paradigm shift from earthly Secularism to Universalism. Secularism is like the Ptolemaic model with the earth and society at the center of “meaning.” I believe the gradual awakening to Universalism will be the gradual awakening to Man’ being revolving around the sun (Son.) The source of Man’s objective meaning is not the earth but rather the level of the Son.

It may take 100 years to collectively arrive at the concept presuming we survive the horrors we are apparently destined for

Just think: the Earth as part of the solar system revolves around the sun. The sun in turn revolves around its place in the Milky Way. The Milky Way in turn revolves around the cycle of galaxies and the galaxies revolve around the Source of the universe. Our universe revolves around the source of multiverses. Multiverse revolves around the Absolute.

How insulting for all those believing they are the center of universal meaning and purpose as opposed to just a small part of an inconceivable process.

A shift is occurring, but as to its nature that is up for speculation.

[Greta]

I believe the gradual awakening to Universalism will be the gradual awakening to Man’ being revolving around the sun

I would like it to go on record that Nick has written something that I agree with.

I think the Sun is the main game here too. A vastly underestimated entity IMO. Excerpts from a draft story I'm working on, which are about as close to us agreeing as I've ever known

Our star is effectively our creator and ruler, but we treat stellar objects as if they are just part of the scenery, a pleasant backdrop to the important business of human affairs. Perhaps our disinterest stems from over-familiarity, or maybe it’s a matter of ‘out of sight, out of mind’? Most stars are too distant and our sun is too bright for us to see either clearly without special instruments.

... it's said that the solar system would appear to a distant observer as consisting of the Sun, Jupiter and some debris, like an unbalanced twin system. Sol comprises about 99.8% of the mass of the solar system. Almost three-quarters of the leftover material is Jupiter, and most of the remainder comprised Saturn.

So how did it turn out that the tiny Earth, being such a miserly crumb in the stellar rubble, would effectively become the brains of the solar system? With all due respect, it would seem a rather tiny brain.

Then again, each human brain starts out as the tip of a three millimetre neural tube. The very tip, that’s all. So perhaps these are early days and there's much growth yet to come for the intelligence of Earthlings? A foetus's brain grows at the rate of 250,00 nerve cells per minute throughout a pregnancy. One hopes that intelligence might similarly extend from the Earth and spread to other worlds, should its hominids ever get their act together.

[Greta]

This is all quite timely with the Parker probe now closer to the Sun than ever before. Maybe this will shake us out of our complacency and help to hit home just how extraordinary it is? It is not part our our activities, we are part of whatever it is and does.

[Dubious]

How insulting for all those believing they are the center of universal meaning and purpose as opposed to just a small part of an inconceivable process.

Seems reasonable but how does that combine with this....?

The source of Man’s objective meaning is not the earth but rather the level of the Son.

What Son?

[TimeSeeker]

We are neither the center nor the purpose of the universe. Which is precisely the problem!

The Universe owes us nothing. Least of all - continued survival. If we enjoy this thing called ‘being’ or ‘existing’ it is entirely on us make sure it continues despite the universe’s non-chalance towards us.

Which is precisely why the principle of parsimony (Occam’s razor) is a pragmatic necessity. Models that approximately predicting reality NOW are better than models that MAY precisely predict reality in 2 centuries.


But it begs a question: if the universe doesn’t give a fuck about us - why shift towards Universalism?

[surreptitious57]

We are neither the center nor the purpose of the universe

Everywhere is the centre of the Universe because it came from a point that was so infinitesimally small
We are though not the purpose of it for it has no purpose it exists for the very simple reason that it can

[TimeSeeker]

Everywhere is the centre of the Universe because it came from a point that was so infinitesimally small

Yeah, but this expansion thing happened since.

[Nick_A]

It seems I disagree with most here since universal purpose makes far more sense to me than a meaningless process and that the universe is a hierarchial structure consisting of levels of reality

As I understand it we exist in a conscious universe and each level of reality supports a unique quality of consciousness. A given level of reality exists within a higher level while lower levels exist within the given level.

The earth is inextricably enmeshed in a network of purposes, a ladder or hierarchy of intentions.

Imagine a tall building of eight levels. At each level there is a large observation area where where can see the world surrounding them

Imagine Man on earth as existing at this third level completely unaware of the fourth level and what beings existing at their level are consciously aware of. All our sensory observations and conclusions are based on our normal sensory level of existence. Some for one reason or another are drawn to question the existence of this fourth conscious level. So they search for people who have advanced in their understanding and not only are open to the idea of the fourth level but of universal structure initiating with a conscious source. They come to the conclusion that the value of science is in measuring along a linear horizontal line of integrating facts. Science is concerned with linear before and after but objective human meaning can only be defined in relation to the vertical quality of a moment.

TimeSeeker wrote: But it begs a question: if the universe doesn’t give a fuck about us - why shift towards Universalism?

But suppose the question isn’t how the universe serves us but rather if human meaning and purpose can only be appreciated by opening to how we can consciously serve universal purpose?

The universal structure previously mentioned allows for the complimentary purposes of involution and evolution. By involution I mean the movement of levels of unity at a higher level into the diversity of a lower. By evolution I mean the flow of the essential three forces uniting to create a higher unity from an involved lower diversity. The universal process enables the Absolute to be complete: the unity of the highest level of conscious unity and the lowest virtual infinity of qualities of diversity

We should give fuck about man’s potential conscious evolution into a higher level of reality first because it is a normal human need and second because as we are living by dominant hypocrisy rather than higher values normal for conscious Man it can be argued that we assure our own destruction.

surreptitious57 wrote: “We are though not the purpose of it for it has no purpose it exists for the very simple reason that it can.”

This makes no sense to me. Are you suggesting that universal laws exist because they can? How can they without a conscious source? Laws make existence possible and you seem to be saying they create themselves.

The belief in secularism is the belief in life within Plato’s cave answering the question of objective human meaning and purpose. Opening to Universalism is the natural impulse to become aware of the human condition keeping us in the Cave creating the obstacles to awakening to the reality of the conscious universe and our place and potential within it. We could move from Ptolemy to Copernicus. Is there any reason we cannot open our minds from the limitations of secularism into the greater reality of Universalism?

[TimeSeeker]

It seems I disagree with most here since universal purpose makes far more sense to me than a meaningless process and that the universe is a hierarchial structure consisting of levels of reality

As I understand it we exist in a conscious universe and each level of reality supports a unique quality of consciousness. A given level of reality exists within a higher level while lower levels exist within the given level.

We exist in a tiny biosphere. But our role is far from critical, and some would argue that it's even detrimental to the 'non-human' teams. Whether we stay or go - I don't think anyone really cares all that much.

We should give fuck about man’s potential conscious evolution into a higher level of reality first because it is a normal human need and second because as we are living by dominant hypocrisy rather than higher values normal for conscious Man it can be argued that we assure our own destruction.

This is the irony that nobody seems to spot. If man is the only creature dominated by 'hypocrisy' and we will assure our own destruction. How is that outcome any different from the universe's plan for us?

99.999% of all species which ever walked The Earth are extinct now.Most of them through no doing of their own; OR humans. The rest of our solar system, galaxy or universe don't seem very hospitable to consciousness either.

I think you got the rules of the game mixed up. Whatever higher values you aspire to - first we need to avoid extinction. Because this is where this train is heading.

[Nick_A]

TimeSeeker

This is the irony that nobody seems to spot. If man is the only creature dominated by 'hypocrisy' and we will assure our own destruction. How is that outcome any different from the universe's plan for us?

What is our part in universal purpose? I believe that Man has two basic purposes. The first is served by animal man on earth This purpose transforms substances by our bodily processes as does other forms of organic life on earth. Secularism reflecting the belief that the earth is the center of Man’s meaning and purpose is the psychological expression of what Ptolemy advocated.

Copernicus suggested the earth as revolving around the sun. The earth then is the center for animal Man but what of conscious Man. The meaning and purpose for conscious Man is connecting levels of reality. Conscious man receives influences from above and gives to below while animal Man is only concerned with below. But since what we experience is the result of the human condition it is foolish to think it can lead to anything else than what we experience. Simone Weil explains our choice

The sea is not less beautiful to our eye because we know that sometimes ships sink in it. On the contrary, it is more beautiful still. If the sea modified the movement of its waves to spare a boat, it would be a being possessing discernment and choice, and not this fluid that is perfectly obedient to all external pressures. It is this perfect obedience that is its beauty.

All the horrors that are produced in this world are like the folds imprinted on the waves by gravity. This is why they contain beauty. Sometimes a poem, like the Iliad, renders this beauty.

Man can never escape obedience to God. A creature cannot not obey. The only choice offered to man as an intelligent and free creature, is to desire obedience or not to desire it. If he does not desire it, he perpetually obeys nevertheless, as a thing subject to mechanical necessity. If he does desire obedience, he remains subject to mechanical necessity, but a new necessity is added on, a necessity constituted by the laws that are proper to supernatural things. Certain actions become impossible for him, while others happen through him, sometimes despite him.

Excerpt from: Thoughts without order concerning the love of God, in an essay entitled L'amour de Dieu et le malheur (The Love of God and affliction). Simone Weil

All our deliberations would be meaningless imagination without the hope of developing our conscious potential and acquiring a higher quality of being. But the unfortunate reality is that the opportunity is hated in the world. Recognition of consciousness greater than our own and the opportunities offered by philosophy and the essence of religion to open our minds to the source of our being and the potential for Man to be a higher part of a universal process rather than just serving as a necessity as does organic life on earth is about the most insulting thing secularism can imagine. Yet it is obvious to me that there are more opportunities for people with the deeper need for meaning can find others with a similar need. It is possible to transcend the influences of feelgoodism, escapism, and charlatans to satisfy the human need for objective meaning. Regardless of how the world must hate them, I support them as I can.

99.999% of all species which ever walked The Earth are extinct now.Most of them through no doing of their own; OR humans. The rest of our solar system, galaxy or universe don't seem very hospitable to consciousness either.

I agree. Buddha was right. Life is suffering. This raises the question if anything can be gained by consciously suffering as opposed to the mechanical suffering of any animal that is part of the universal process.

I think you got the rules of the game mixed up. Whatever higher values you aspire to - first we need to avoid extinction. Because this is where this train is heading.

How can we avoid extinction if the human condition invites it. We are creatures of mechanical reaction rather than conscious action. You refer to a choice an individual can become capable of that doesn’t exist for the Great Beast.

[Greta]

Cyborgism or AI will be that next step. Humans appear to be a stepping stone, and the Earth like an organism seeding its surrounds, which our AI will surely do in the future. Life, or post life, may yet proliferate around the galaxy, always evolving to survive and thrive.

It would seem absurd for this vast universal edifice to be about humans and their doings. If there is any grand design, we humans are surely far too blinkered and trivial-minded to be the end - the grand result - when there is so much obvious potential for mental and empathetic development both in individuals and in societies.

Our main issue is that we still carry much of the natural psychopathy of the predator within us, happily churning our way through weaker lives, both human and otherwise, with nary a thought.

Until we humans start appreciating the costs and sacrifices that underpin all of our lives, and account for them properly, we will continue this blind exploitation without care and ultimately perform self harm, and not just in a basic practical sense.

[Nick_A]

Cyborgism or AI will be that next step. Humans appear to be a stepping stone, and the Earth like an organism seeding its surrounds, which our AI will surely do in the future. Life, or post life, may yet proliferate around the galaxy, always evolving to survive and thrive.

It would seem absurd for this vast universal edifice to be about humans and their doings. If there is any grand design, we humans are surely far too blinkered and trivial-minded to be the end - the grand result - when there is so much obvious potential for mental and empathetic development both in individuals and in societies.

Our main issue is that we still carry much of the natural psychopathy of the predator within us, happily churning our way through weaker lives, both human and otherwise, with nary a thought.

Until we humans start appreciating the costs and sacrifices that underpin all of our lives, and account for them properly, we will continue this blind exploitation without care and ultimately perform self harm, and not just in a basic practical sense.

Greta, think about what you are saying. Vertical conscious evolution and increased mechanical efficiency are completely different aims. Consciousness is a human potential which connects our being to wholeness. Mechanical machines are incapable of consciousness and are used to create increased fragmentation.

Because we are as we are, everything is as it is. As we are there is nothing to learn which will change things. Water seeks its own level. Conscious beings are one thing and mechanical machines are another.

[Age]

Because we are as we are, everything is as it is. As we are there is nothing to learn which will change things.

Did you not start this thread with; "It dawned on me that we are at the beginning of a paradigm shift from earthly Secularism to Universalism."?

How do you now propose human beings get to that change without learning, some thing new?

Was is not the LEARNING OF 'actually the earth does revolve around the sun instead of the other way around' that was part of the catalyst change for a paradigm shift to occur from one thing to secularism?

If that was the case, then would it not again take the LEARNING OF some thing, anew again, for another paradigm shift from secularism to some thing new like what you call "universalism"?

Is it not true that there actually NEEDS to be some thing TO LEARN, which will actually change things?

For the very fact that if there is nothing to learn, then nothing will change, regarding human beings and their behavior.

As I see it, as human beings are, then there is actually some thing TO LEARN, which will change things.

[Greta]

Cyborgism or AI will be that next step. Humans appear to be a stepping stone, and the Earth like an organism seeding its surrounds, which our AI will surely do in the future. Life, or post life, may yet proliferate around the galaxy, always evolving to survive and thrive.

It would seem absurd for this vast universal edifice to be about humans and their doings. If there is any grand design, we humans are surely far too blinkered and trivial-minded to be the end - the grand result - when there is so much obvious potential for mental and empathetic development both in individuals and in societies.

Our main issue is that we still carry much of the natural psychopathy of the predator within us, happily churning our way through weaker lives, both human and otherwise, with nary a thought.

Until we humans start appreciating the costs and sacrifices that underpin all of our lives, and account for them properly, we will continue this blind exploitation without care and ultimately perform self harm, and not just in a basic practical sense.

Greta, think about what you are saying. Vertical conscious evolution and increased mechanical efficiency are completely different aims. Consciousness is a human potential which connects our being to wholeness. Mechanical machines are incapable of consciousness and are used to create increased fragmentation.

Because we are as we are, everything is as it is. As we are there is nothing to learn which will change things. Water seeks its own level. Conscious beings are one thing and mechanical machines are another.

I think we are in the process of placing our consciousness within machines. At this stage we have placed part of our consciousness within them; the machines are extensions of us. Humans will never be able to live off-world for extended periods so, if humans are to survive, the amount of biology in a person must decrease and the technology increase to the point where spacefaring and extremely long lifespans are possible.

It sounds like sci fi but this is the reality. No matter what humans do, in the next x million years (less than a billion) the world will be uninhabitable for the kinds of life around today. If Earth's story is to continue, these kinds of changes will be needed. Otherwise all of it disappears into the ether.

A long way to go at this stage, so the idea of sentience without biology as we know it seems just as unrealistic but history is littered with examples of that which was believed pie-in-the-sky being actualised.

What you are hoping for is rapid moral growth imposed by paternalist rule (yet a morality that doesn't care about other species, erm) - but in an overpopulating and fearful world that brings the worst out in people. Maybe that's the only way to bring bitterly divided people under control, like Saddam, Gaddafi and Putin? Personally, I think moral growth will come naturally from increased societal maturity, although major warfare or natural disasters might result in lost information, setting us back towards barbarism and having to start over.