Who Deserves Empathy?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:10 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:58 pm
And still the pedestrian died.

Look here, this is the original hypothetical...

The driver of the car was a 16-year-old wild child who was driving the family car without permission. She was distracted by a text message from her best friend. Meanwhile, the car was traveling at twice the posted speed limit.

...there's nuthin' admirable about this person, nuthin' about her warrants sympathy/empathy.

'She didn't mean to!'

But she did!

'I didn't mean to!'

But you did!
Of course. People always get in a car and drive off thinking 'I'm going to kill someone today'. :roll:
I would love to see what she was driving. Yanks can't even drive manual, let alone those huge tanks that scream 'tiny dick' and/or 'inadequate arsehole who wants to bully everyone else on the road with their aggressive-looking 'mean machine' '.

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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:07 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:10 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:58 pm
And still the pedestrian died.

Look here, this is the original hypothetical...

The driver of the car was a 16-year-old wild child who was driving the family car without permission. She was distracted by a text message from her best friend. Meanwhile, the car was traveling at twice the posted speed limit.

...there's nuthin' admirable about this person, nuthin' about her warrants sympathy/empathy.

'She didn't mean to!'

But she did!

'I didn't mean to!'

But you did!
Of course. People always get in a car and drive off thinking 'I'm going to kill someone today'. :roll:
I would love to see what she was driving. Yanks can't even drive manual, let alone those huge tanks that scream 'tiny dick' and/or 'inadequate arsehole who wants to bully everyone else on the road with their aggressive-looking 'mean machine' '.
How about the French, the British, the Spanish, the Italians, the Russians, the Indians, the Chinese, the Koreans, etc., or are you one-track minded?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:33 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:07 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:10 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:58 pm
And still the pedestrian died.

Look here, this is the original hypothetical...

The driver of the car was a 16-year-old wild child who was driving the family car without permission. She was distracted by a text message from her best friend. Meanwhile, the car was traveling at twice the posted speed limit.

...there's nuthin' admirable about this person, nuthin' about her warrants sympathy/empathy.

'She didn't mean to!'

But she did!

'I didn't mean to!'

But you did!
Of course. People always get in a car and drive off thinking 'I'm going to kill someone today'. :roll:
I would love to see what she was driving. Yanks can't even drive manual, let alone those huge tanks that scream 'tiny dick' and/or 'inadequate arsehole who wants to bully everyone else on the road with their aggressive-looking 'mean machine' '.
How about the French, the British, the Spanish, the Italians, the Russians, the Indians, the Chinese, the Koreans, etc., or are you one-track minded?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
It's Americans who insist on driving enormous offensive-looking cars (with idiots in other countries following suit).

I mean, do you really need something like this to drive a couple of brats around town to soccer matches, or one block to school?
(Apparently we can't post photos any more, not even pathetically small ones).

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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:09 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:33 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:07 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:10 pm

Of course. People always get in a car and drive off thinking 'I'm going to kill someone today'. :roll:
I would love to see what she was driving. Yanks can't even drive manual, let alone those huge tanks that scream 'tiny dick' and/or 'inadequate arsehole who wants to bully everyone else on the road with their aggressive-looking 'mean machine' '.
How about the French, the British, the Spanish, the Italians, the Russians, the Indians, the Chinese, the Koreans, etc., or are you one-track minded?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
It's Americans who insist on driving enormous offensive-looking cars (with idiots in other countries following suit).

I mean, do you really need something like this to drive a couple of brats around town to soccer matches, or one block to school?
(Apparently we can't post photos any more, not even pathetically small ones).
Living in ignorance of what's going on in other countries, so fixated your mind is on the Americans. The kind of shit you're talking about happens all over the world.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲

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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:09 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:33 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:07 am


How about the French, the British, the Spanish, the Italians, the Russians, the Indians, the Chinese, the Koreans, etc., or are you one-track minded?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
It's Americans who insist on driving enormous offensive-looking cars (with idiots in other countries following suit).

I mean, do you really need something like this to drive a couple of brats around town to soccer matches, or one block to school?
(Apparently we can't post photos any more, not even pathetically small ones).
Living in ignorance of what's going on in other countries, so fixated your mind is on the Americans. The kind of shit you're talking about happens all over the world.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
https://firstquarterfinance.com/why-do- ... illy-cars/

''According to IHS Automotive 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas, only 17.7 percent of pickup sales were full-size. According to IHS Automotive 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas, only 17.7 percent of pickup sales were full-size.
''By Sanjay Salomon June 25, 2015
Americans appear to have a big appetite for bigger cars.

According to data from IHS Automotive, large vehicles accounted for 63 percent of total US sales in 2013. Meanwhile, large vehicles only accounted for 25.4 percent of all vehicles sold outside the US during the same year.

IHS Automotive also found 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas that rate shrank considerably to 17.7 percent. In the SUV segment, more than half (54.4 percent) of all SUVs sold in the US in 2013 were on the large side. In non-US markets, larger options made up 36.5 percent of all SUVs sold in 2013.''

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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:32 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:09 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:33 am

It's Americans who insist on driving enormous offensive-looking cars (with idiots in other countries following suit).

I mean, do you really need something like this to drive a couple of brats around town to soccer matches, or one block to school?
(Apparently we can't post photos any more, not even pathetically small ones).
Living in ignorance of what's going on in other countries, so fixated your mind is on the Americans. The kind of shit you're talking about happens all over the world.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
https://firstquarterfinance.com/why-do- ... illy-cars/

''According to IHS Automotive 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas, only 17.7 percent of pickup sales were full-size. According to IHS Automotive 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas, only 17.7 percent of pickup sales were full-size.
''By Sanjay Salomon June 25, 2015
Americans appear to have a big appetite for bigger cars.

According to data from IHS Automotive, large vehicles accounted for 63 percent of total US sales in 2013. Meanwhile, large vehicles only accounted for 25.4 percent of all vehicles sold outside the US during the same year.

IHS Automotive also found 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas that rate shrank considerably to 17.7 percent. In the SUV segment, more than half (54.4 percent) of all SUVs sold in the US in 2013 were on the large side. In non-US markets, larger options made up 36.5 percent of all SUVs sold in 2013.''
So what? I don't know if you're cherry picking to try to prove a point. If Americans like big, more power to them.
Based on history, I would say the Americans are entitled.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:42 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:32 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:09 am


Living in ignorance of what's going on in other countries, so fixated your mind is on the Americans. The kind of shit you're talking about happens all over the world.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
https://firstquarterfinance.com/why-do- ... illy-cars/

''According to IHS Automotive 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas, only 17.7 percent of pickup sales were full-size. According to IHS Automotive 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas, only 17.7 percent of pickup sales were full-size.
''By Sanjay Salomon June 25, 2015
Americans appear to have a big appetite for bigger cars.

According to data from IHS Automotive, large vehicles accounted for 63 percent of total US sales in 2013. Meanwhile, large vehicles only accounted for 25.4 percent of all vehicles sold outside the US during the same year.

IHS Automotive also found 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas that rate shrank considerably to 17.7 percent. In the SUV segment, more than half (54.4 percent) of all SUVs sold in the US in 2013 were on the large side. In non-US markets, larger options made up 36.5 percent of all SUVs sold in 2013.''
So what? I don't know if you're cherry picking to try to prove a point. If Americans like big, more power to them.
Based on history, I would say the Americans are entitled.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
No doubt you drive one :lol:

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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:02 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:42 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:32 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 am


https://firstquarterfinance.com/why-do- ... illy-cars/

''According to IHS Automotive 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas, only 17.7 percent of pickup sales were full-size. According to IHS Automotive 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas, only 17.7 percent of pickup sales were full-size.
''By Sanjay Salomon June 25, 2015
Americans appear to have a big appetite for bigger cars.

According to data from IHS Automotive, large vehicles accounted for 63 percent of total US sales in 2013. Meanwhile, large vehicles only accounted for 25.4 percent of all vehicles sold outside the US during the same year.

IHS Automotive also found 88 percent of all pickups sold in the US in 2013 were full-size models. Overseas that rate shrank considerably to 17.7 percent. In the SUV segment, more than half (54.4 percent) of all SUVs sold in the US in 2013 were on the large side. In non-US markets, larger options made up 36.5 percent of all SUVs sold in 2013.''
So what? I don't know if you're cherry picking to try to prove a point. If Americans like big, more power to them.
Based on history, I would say the Americans are entitled.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
No doubt you drive one :lol:
Wrong. I prefer medium myself (easier to park e.g.)

What do you like to drive?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: "She didn't set out to murder someone."

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:25 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:02 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:42 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:32 am


So what? I don't know if you're cherry picking to try to prove a point. If Americans like big, more power to them.
Based on history, I would say the Americans are entitled.

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
No doubt you drive one :lol:
Wrong. I prefer medium myself (easier to park e.g.)

What do you like to drive?

🇺🇲PhilX🇺🇲
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:03 pm

The size of the vehicle is irrelevant.

In the example given: the driver was criminally (lethally) irresponsible.

The question: Does the driver deserve empathy?

My answer: no, she does not.

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Re:

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:43 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:03 pm
The size of the vehicle is irrelevant.

In the example given: the driver was criminally (lethally) irresponsible.

The question: Does the driver deserve empathy?

My answer: no, she does not.
It's a silly question anyway. Some people are incapable of empathy. It takes a certain amount of intelligence and imagination to be empathetic.
It's not exactly the sort of thing you can pick and choose about. You might as well ask if someone 'deserves' to be loved. You either are or you aren't. And the size of the car is not irrelevant. I"ve lost count of the number of times I've read about very young children being squashed in driveways by morons in 'SUVs'. There's also the psychology of imagining you are indestructible just because you are in a huge vehicle, and the feelings of power that the sort of idiots who drive them are susceptible to. Why do you think those vehicles are often made to look as menacing and aggressive as possible?
Another thing that makes them more dangerous is the absurd fad for 'bullbars' (which may have either gone out of fashion or been outlawed over there) that concentrate the impact into a small area and greatly increase the damage done to anything they might hit. Driving on urban streets while encased in a lethal weapon is NOT a situation where you should be encouraging menacing megalomania in incompetent and intellectually-deficient drivers.



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Re: Who Deserves Empathy?

Post by attofishpi » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:15 am

commonsense wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:01 pm
Who Deserves Empathy?
Every body.

Why?

Because we are all 'victims' of our upbringing, and their circumstances.

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Re: Who Deserves Empathy?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:51 am

There is a problem with the premise. There is empathy-the-ideal, and empathy-the-instinct.

There is a signaling problem from society. On the one hand we are being pressured to "rely on reason and rationality" and that "instincts are not rational", on the other hand we are told to "empathise and feel for others". Hey, society - can you make up your fucking mind? Can I trust my instincts or not?

And so the word 'empathy' is not useful! Because there is the IDEAL of empathy and there is the INSTINCT of empathy - naturally, people are only familiar with the INSTINCT. The IDEAL requires additional learning/understanding. So because the Dunning-Kruger effect is a real thing people cannot tell the difference between ideal-empathy and instinctive-empathy. So they default to the latter!

Instinctive-empathy is actually harmful! Instinctive-empathy is selfish and small-minded! Instinctive-empathy is a short-term thinker! As per the argument made by Paul Bloom: https://youtu.be/S1zZ_eKSAAI

And so to go back to the OP: Does the driver deserve empathy? No! The driver deserves mercy. But only IF they show remorse and regret.

To show empathy based on age is to show preferential treatment e.g ageism. The laws of society apply EQUALLY. To apply them selectively is to undermine the purpose and effectiveness of laws.

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Re: Who Deserves Empathy?

Post by commonsense » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:42 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:51 am
There is a problem with the premise. There is empathy-the-ideal, and empathy-the-instinct.

There is a signaling problem from society. On the one hand we are being pressured to "rely on reason and rationality" and that "instincts are not rational", on the other hand we are told to "empathise and feel for others". Hey, society - can you make up your fucking mind? Can I trust my instincts or not?

And so the word 'empathy' is not useful! Because there is the IDEAL of empathy and there is the INSTINCT of empathy - naturally, people are only familiar with the INSTINCT. The IDEAL requires additional learning/understanding. So because the Dunning-Kruger effect is a real thing people cannot tell the difference between ideal-empathy and instinctive-empathy. So they default to the latter!

Instinctive-empathy is actually harmful! Instinctive-empathy is selfish and small-minded! Instinctive-empathy is a short-term thinker! As per the argument made by Paul Bloom: https://youtu.be/S1zZ_eKSAAI

And so to go back to the OP: Does the driver deserve empathy? No! The driver deserves mercy. But only IF they show remorse and regret.

To show empathy based on age is to show preferential treatment e.g ageism. The laws of society apply EQUALLY. To apply them selectively is to undermine the purpose and effectiveness of laws.
Instinctive Empathy (the selfish buzz from being altruistic: Bad.
Ideal (Effective) Empathy (the contribution to fighting the world's needs): Good.
Do you agree?

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Re: Who Deserves Empathy?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:44 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:42 pm
Instinctive Empathy (the selfish buzz from being altruistic: Bad.
Ideal (Effective) Empathy (the contribution to fighting the world's needs): Good.
Do you agree?
Yes, but it begs a question. How do we gain insight into the "the world's needs"? The answer, of course is Science/Democracy or any other feedback mechanism into the system.

But it leads us down a treacherous path. Because we cannot solve all the problems at the same time - we have to decide WHICH needs and WHOSE needs come first.... Prioritisation. And it's a difficult pill to swallow when you are told that: "Your needs don't come first"

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