Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

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Dalek Prime
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:34 pm

-1- wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:32 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:58 pm
Greta wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:02 am
It's complicated and impractical. Thus people find it boring and irrelevant, fussing about things that can safely be taken for granted.

However, their innocent bravado is exposed when they are lying on the deathbeds, and then suddenly those boring and irrelevant existential and moral philosophical notions become incredibly interesting and important.
A little too late. Then they're left grasping at the first bit of muck that some priest says to them. I'd rather die with my own thoughts on what it was about, than someone else's mental jizz washing over me. (Eww!)
Mmmm... somebody else's.... mentla jizzm... washing over me... I would think I had already died and gone to heaven.
I can live, or die with rather, some hot buttocks robbing me of my last breath. True ass-phyxiation.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:37 pm

Greta wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:24 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:58 pm
Greta wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:02 am
It's complicated and impractical. Thus people find it boring and irrelevant, fussing about things that can safely be taken for granted.

However, their innocent bravado is exposed when they are lying on the deathbeds, and then suddenly those boring and irrelevant existential and moral philosophical notions become incredibly interesting and important.
A little too late. Then they're left grasping at the first bit of muck that some priest says to them. I'd rather die with my own thoughts on what it was about, than someone else's mental jizz washing over me. (Eww!)
I think most of us would request that soul parasites not be in attendance in our final days. It's not as though they have been offering to come over and vac the house, mow the lawn, rub my sore muscles or help struggling friends. So they are too late for visitation rights - they didn't pay their dues.

Once the lights start going out, though, it doesn't matter if a herd of randy bull elephants jizzed over you after months of enforced sexual deprivation (and no umbrella provided), because people at that the end of their lives either fade to black or shift to a new subjective realm where the jizzers can't get to them.
Yeah. I doubt my dad had any to much idea I was even there at his bedside.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:40 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:24 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:57 pm
It's the old joke; three rabbis, four opinions.
And five congregations.
And six points on a star.

commonsense
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by commonsense » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:30 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:40 pm
commonsense wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:24 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:57 pm
It's the old joke; three rabbis, four opinions.
And five congregations.
And six points on a star.
Good one. I hadn’t heard that before.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:13 pm

I think they look at continental philosophy with disdain, and honestly I think that's mostly justified. This is just a lot of the shit we see coming out of arrogant college kids, and they don't really back it up with hard reasoning.

When it comes to analytical philosophy, they certainly don't. Even if they speak ill of the concept, it's one they use themselves.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:37 pm

Because people are hypocrites and do not want to acknowledge they use abstract means to rationalize the empirical and empirical means to rationalize the abstract.

All people claim the importance of "experience" as knowledge without knowing the love of experience as knowledge is the love of knowledge...aka philosophy.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:33 am

commonsense wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:30 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:40 pm
commonsense wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:24 pm


And five congregations.
And six points on a star.
Good one. I hadn’t heard that before.
Thanks. Neither had I, but I had to come up with something with a six. :D

Judaka
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Judaka » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:14 am

commonsense wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:41 pm
Judaka wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:22 pm
Has philosophy ever been mainstream? Personally, while I find some aspects of philosophy interesting, 90% of the threads here aren't interesting to me at all. Even topics which are interesting, some people often have very odd views which lack any utility or sense, meaning I won't be that interested in talking about it with them.

I think philosophy, so far as it has utility, is often talked about but within a specific context like morality, religion, obligations and so on. When you talk about philosophy without context, I generally assume the topic doesn't have much utility and we're talking recreationally or we're talking about something rather complicated and esoteric like ontology, epistemology and existentialism.

So if you're not interested in that kind of stuff and you think it's a waste of time then you might look at it with disdain, I think compared to other hobbies, someone being very interested in philosophy leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Just look at this forum and see how differently people approach philosophy, some are just normal people while others I would say have some very strange ideas. So it's easy to see how those strange ideas can come to make philosophy like in this forum looks weird and useless, compare to its application in life which is mostly useful and normal.
Spot on, Judaka (Judaica?). Your points are valid. Though I know that you were talking about someone being interested in philosophy, I decided to hone in on the emphasized phrase: are the questions in philosophy unanswered or unresolved?
Philosophy is mostly interpretative, there are questions of validity, effectiveness, efficiency in philosophy. Finding an answer is easy in philosophy but isn't about finding an answer, philosophy is about finding a GOOD answer. It wasn't all that long ago that philosophy was a mechanism for understanding the world but psychology, anthropology, neuroscience and such have replaced philosophy here. With those here, the uninformed opinions of philosophers hold little value.

If philosophy is pretty much useless in telling us "how things are" and should be limited to "how to maximize the utility in the context of subjective thought". What should be at the forefront of our minds, what can we do and what are we trying to achieve. All answered questions but with nearly infinite possibilities for improvement.

Well everyone will have their own views on that but that's where I stand.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:34 pm

Philosophy has no stated criteria for success/failure so anything goes.
And philosophers have a tendency to over-complicate trivial matters to the point where they become esoteric.

Philosophy for its own sake is as misguided as science for its own sake. They are both problem-solving/thinking tools.

What problem is philosophy (for its own sake) trying to solve?

Q.E.D
Judaka wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:14 am
Finding an answer is easy in philosophy but isn't about finding an answer, philosophy is about finding a GOOD answer.
What's your criteria for GOOD vs BAD answers?

Every distinction you draw requires a classification rule ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_rule )

Judaka
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Judaka » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:18 am

What's your criteria for GOOD vs BAD answers?
The purpose of philosophy is somewhat self-evident when examined from the perspective that someone is engaging in philosophical thought in order to accomplish something. I think it's also self-evident that people who are considering new options, discussing and considering topics and so on for the sake of finding a better understanding or a better answer, already have some idea about what that entails. Perhaps they are asking the wrong questions, giving the wrong answers or focusing on the wrong things but at least it's not so aimless that it can't even distinguish between good answers and bad answers.

I agree that philosophy is a problem-solving and thinking tool, I think that people have a limited number of ways to live successfully in the world, they have a limited number of ways to define what "living successfully" in the world means too. That applies not just to living in the world but any problem even when it's open-ended and subjective, philosophy is about finding effective and efficient solutions on really a vast number of things that all fall under the umbrella of the word "should". What should one do, how should one approach an issue, how should one think about a situation and so on, it's not really the best thing to be asking "what" or "why" with and I think people who try to do that get led astray.

So good answers are answers that cause desirable results and bad answers are the opposite, that's my personal opinion about it and I recognise it is just an opinion. Honestly, I am not that interested in philosophy beyond "should" from the perspective of "for the sake of achieving..." and so that's where my position comes from.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:11 am

Judaka wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:18 am
What's your criteria for GOOD vs BAD answers?
The purpose of philosophy is somewhat self-evident when examined from the perspective that someone is engaging in philosophical thought in order to accomplish something. I think it's also self-evident that people who are considering new options.

...

So good answers are answers that cause desirable results and bad answers are the opposite, that's my personal opinion about it and I recognise it is just an opinion.
You will have to forgive me - I don't believe in self-evident "truths" or self-evident goals.

Observe that in order to answer my question you have drawn (yet another) unqualified distinction: desirable vs undesirable. The "define X" game recurses into nothingness.

Philosophy is step 1 of the problem-solving cycle. It's purpose is to help you conceptualize the problem. Produce a taxonomy of some sort. Then the the empirical process begins. Rinse. Repeat.

But if we are to say that the universal goal is problem-solving, philosophy is usually the first tool (of many!) you pick up. Some people forget to put it down...

Judaka
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Judaka » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:32 am

You will have to forgive me - I don't believe in self-evident "truths" or self-evident goals.

Observe that in order to answer my question you have drawn (yet another) unqualified distinction: desirable vs undesirable. The "define X" game recurses into nothingness.
What is the alternative? A survey? The purpose of philosophy is to be used in the way it is being used, that is clearly self-evident, almost meaninglessly so. If people thought answers had equal value in philosophy then there would be no merit in questioning your answers or trying to change them, why even waste time thinking about it?

Desirable vs undesirable simply means that it is subjective and there is no answer that transcends that subjectivity. An individual could articulate what that means and end up with something more concrete but it would still be categorised as "desirable vs undesirable".

I agree that philosophy is the first step of the problem-solving process and that some people don't recognise the limitations of philosophy. Though often even when we know what to do; doing it isn't as easy as we'd wish.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:10 am

Judaka wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:32 am
You will have to forgive me - I don't believe in self-evident "truths" or self-evident goals.

Observe that in order to answer my question you have drawn (yet another) unqualified distinction: desirable vs undesirable. The "define X" game recurses into nothingness.
What is the alternative? A survey? The purpose of philosophy is to be used in the way it is being used, that is clearly self-evident, almost meaninglessly so. If people thought answers had equal value in philosophy then there would be no merit in questioning your answers or trying to change them, why even waste time thinking about it?

Desirable vs undesirable simply means that it is subjective and there is no answer that transcends that subjectivity. An individual could articulate what that means and end up with something more concrete but it would still be categorised as "desirable vs undesirable".

I agree that philosophy is the first step of the problem-solving process and that some people don't recognise the limitations of philosophy. Though often even when we know what to do; doing it isn't as easy as we'd wish.
The pertinent question: do you think philosophy is a team activity then? Or can you do it in isolation?

I am in the latter camp.

Philosophy -> Mental model -> Hypothesis -> Experiment -> Result. Rinse/repeat.

In the world of computation iteration is cheap. And so (at least conceptually) philosophy AND science are both useless on their own. They are just tools. Part of a larger system/method/process.

So long as you don't forget that - you will be OK. Which brings me to....career philosophers.

Judaka
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by Judaka » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:04 pm

The pertinent question: do you think philosophy is a team activity then? Or can you do it in isolation?
Haha, it's not a team activity. You can do it in isolation.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Why does the public look at philosophy with disdain?

Post by TimeSeeker » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:25 pm

Judaka wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:04 pm
The pertinent question: do you think philosophy is a team activity then? Or can you do it in isolation?
Haha, it's not a team activity. You can do it in isolation.
Then we are on the same page as to its utility ;)

Interacting with other "philosophers" is nothing but practice. It's not meant to achieve anything. It's just meant to teach you how to question your pre-suppositions/assumptions.

I can tell you from experience - software engineering provides much more concise and impromptu feedback when you produce a bad argument.

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