Orwell vs. Huxley

[Arising_uk]

… America may become the first nation to be destroyed by tweets. Who needs bombs when a nation voluntarily makes itself ripe for the kill as suggested by Huxley?

And also vote in a president who is a complete twatter.

[QuantumT]

And also vote in a president who is a complete twatter.

Jesus! Who'd have thought we two would ever agree on something?!

High 5 dude!

[Nick_A]

The frightening thing is that those like Greta, Arising, and Harbal etc. are totally unaware of the difference between indoctrination and education. They define education as what they like and indoctrination as what they don't like. This mindset would not know the difference between an educated and indoctrinated person. What could be more superficial? As a result the descent into a form of political slavery is inevitable

[-1-]

The frightening thing is that those like Greta, Arising, and Harbal etc. are totally unaware of the difference between indoctrination and education. They define education as what they like and indoctrination as what they don't like. This mindset would not know the difference between an educated and indoctrinated person. What could be more superficial? As a result the descent into a form of political slavery is inevitable

This is pure conjecture on your part.

An indoctrination is a repeating of a doctrine until it is set in the mind.

Education is training the mind to pick up new information and process it; and to apply new information and old information to arrive at a synthesis.

Your assessment of Greta, Arising and Harbal is completely misinformed, unfortunate and inaccurate. It is you who is incapable processing brand new information; it is you who keeps repeating unsubstantiated claims until you believe them.

I am sorry, Nick_A, but while it's true that "they" deem indoctrination unlikable, and education likable, their definition does not stop there. Whereas yours does.

[Nick_A]

The frightening thing is that those like Greta, Arising, and Harbal etc. are totally unaware of the difference between indoctrination and education. They define education as what they like and indoctrination as what they don't like. This mindset would not know the difference between an educated and indoctrinated person. What could be more superficial? As a result the descent into a form of political slavery is inevitable

This is pure conjecture on your part.

An indoctrination is a repeating of a doctrine until it is set in the mind.

Education is training the mind to pick up new information and process it; and to apply new information and old information to arrive at a synthesis.

Your assessment of Greta, Arising and Harbal is completely misinformed, unfortunate and inaccurate. It is you who is incapable processing brand new information; it is you who keeps repeating unsubstantiated claims until you believe them.

I am sorry, Nick_A, but while it's true that "they" deem indoctrination unlikable, and education likable, their definition does not stop there. Whereas yours does.

The bottom line is that you haven't thought about the essential difference between an educated and indoctrinated person. Indoctrination trains the mind. Education in the real meaning of the word opens the mind. Indoctrination will always oppose whatever opens the mind as correct "education. Have you ever thought what would be necessary for you to become an educated man?

[Greta]

This is pure conjecture on your part.

An indoctrination is a repeating of a doctrine until it is set in the mind.

Thanks -1-. I decided to ignore the idiots and focus on the good stuff. Life's too short.

However, probably like many others, I have long been fascinated and impressed by Orwell's and Huxley's vision and wanted to chat about that. Certainly with Trump at the helm the Huxley threat appears ever more immanent: http://thehill.com/homenews/media/39935 ... -of-orwell

Sagan later refined the authors' fears with his famous observation that seems to come ever more true by the year:

I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”

[Nick_A]

This is pure conjecture on your part.

An indoctrination is a repeating of a doctrine until it is set in the mind.

Thanks -1-. I decided to ignore the idiots and focus on the good stuff. Life's too short.

However, probably like many others, I have long been fascinated and impressed by Orwell's and Huxley's vision and wanted to chat about that. Certainly with Trump at the helm the Huxley threat appears ever more immanent: http://thehill.com/homenews/media/39935 ... -of-orwell

Sagan later refined the authors' fears with his famous observation that seems to come ever more true by the year:

I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”

As usual Greta offers nothing but complaints about Trump. Sagan wrote about the dumbing down of America. This is true but the question remains why it seems inevitable. Simone wrote that at least we can "understand the force by which we are crushed." But the deniers do not want to. they prefer to complain about Trump and call it educated discourse. Distinguishing between indoctrination and education is no longer important simply because now only indoctrination is considered important.

[Greta]

Overpopulation is the key problem, as usual. When the "masses" are sufficiently numerous, they stop mattering to politicians, if they ever did (consider Stalin's comment about one death being a tragedy but a million a statistic).

So it's a matter of manipulation. This current situation - which most find problematic - perfectly suits those at the top. This is their faulty design. So, with the masses' education neglected, the many start to lose touch with society's bodies of knowledge after a couple of generations because poor and middle class parents will also lack the capacity to compensate for the rationalisation of their children's education.

Even the Romans knew that an undereducated populace was easier to control and manipulate than an educated one (saves on public education costs too). Now, with public education suitably rationalised into work preparation, moguls like Murdoch propagandise freely to undereducated pliable minds.

George Carlin saw it clearly enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQepXUhJ98 - he was on fire

"They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fuckin’ years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork.

And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it.

And now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your fuckin' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later 'cause they own this fuckin' place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. ...The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. ...And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care.

That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain wilfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their assholes every day, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream, 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it."

[-1-]

The bottom line is that you haven't thought about the essential difference between an educated and indoctrinated person. Indoctrination trains the mind. Education in the real meaning of the word opens the mind. Indoctrination will always oppose whatever opens the mind as correct "education. Have you ever thought what would be necessary for you to become an educated man?

"Indoctrination trains the mind" is a bit of a misnomer. At face value, it is true; but there is training and there is training. Training may be a preparation for adapting to many different situations; training is also a word where the trainee is trained to perform one task and not deviate from the prescribed process.

For instance, a doctor is trained in medicine; a doctor needs to acquire a huge flowchart mentally, and diagnose people for what's wrong with them. This flowchart is incredibly complex and constantly changing.

For the other instance, training involves a man to scream "Sir, yes, Sir!" or else "Sir, no, Sir!" every time he hears a question.

Which of the two do you mean by indoctrination being a training? I fear that you are committing an equivocation fallacy and therefore you are confusing yourself (or trying to confuse me).

"Education in the real meaning of the word opens the mind." Well, not really. It is the mind's reaction with the curriculum that opens the mind or does not open the mind. You can't open all the minds all of the time. You can only open some minds some of the time. The educator's responsibility does not extend to the student's receptiveness. Whether the mind opens is not a function of education alone; it is a function of an interaction of both tuition and student.

"Have you ever thought what would be necessary for you to become an educated man?" what a silly question. I don't set out to get an education like "I'm going to get an education, and after I got it, I will get an ironing board, and after I got the ironing board, next I will get a schnitzel dinner." This is silly! What on Earth possessed you to even ask such a question? I know you as a highly intelligent man, Nick_A, why do you insult yourself with asking such a silly question?

[-1-]

The bottom line is that you haven't thought about the essential difference between an educated and indoctrinated person.

That's the bottom line? Are you sure? Are you sure that the MOST IMPORTANT element in this discussion, the bottom line, is my perception, my own little me's perception of the difference between an educated person and an indoctrinated person?

The bottom line is completely different from that. The bottom line is truth: true, unadulterated, plain, robust truth. That's what we ought to be after, collectively, and not after what my perception of the difference is between an indoctrinated person and an educated person.

[Dontaskme]

I never let any schooling(prison) - (artificial programming) get in the way of my education ~ DAM

So what did get in the way of it?

Nothing got in the way, that's my point. No other thing can get in the way of the intelliegnce that is running the universe.

I instinctively knew to get out of my own way and let true intelligence shine, take centre stage.

.

The only reason I am not a brain surgeon right now is because life has not yet evolved that skill in me.

.

[Harbal]

The only reason I am not a brain surgeon right now is because life has not yet evolved that skill in me.

If you are saying that life hasn't sent you to medical school in order to be educated in the skills of brain surgery, then I suppose you could look at it that way.

[Dontaskme]

The only reason I am not a brain surgeon right now is because life has not yet evolved that skill in me.

If you are saying that life hasn't sent you to medical school in order to be educated in the skills of brain surgery, then I suppose you could look at it that way.

Well the unmoved life living itself doesn't have to move or do anything, but when it does move and do something, it will be because it was meant to move and do something, and it will not move or do something one nano second before it is meant to do it.

And that movement will be known as knowledge.
.

[Harbal]

Well the unmoved life living itself doesn't have to move or do anything, but when it does move and do something, it will be because it was meant to move and do something, and it will not move or do something one nano second before it is meant to do it.

And that movement will be known as knowledge.
.

So who knows, you may end up a brain surgeon, yet.

[Dontaskme]

And also vote in a president who is a complete twatter.

Only a twat would vote for a twat.

You need to get yourself educated on the skill of knowing there is no difference.

.