Philosophy Now Forum

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 12:17 am

jayjacobus wrote:...

In war even a pacifist must be a killer, the same as everybody else.

No, they can be a conscientious objector and go to jail or serve in the medical corp.

I see your point but there is a counter point:

In a battle between 1000 pacifist British soldiers and a 100 warlike Germans, the British are shooting in the air and the Germans are shooting to kill.

Gradually the British have less and less soldiers but the Germans have 100 soldiers still.

Eventually there are no British soldiers left.

This is why there are no pacifist British soldiers.

They either die or stop being pacifists.

jayjacobus wrote: ↑Wed May 02, 2018 7:12 pm

iolo wrote: ↑Wed May 02, 2018 5:48 pm Nobody can make you kill.

I am in a place I don't want to be, in a situation I don't want to be in and people are shooting at me.
I am a pacifist but it's kill or be killed.
In war even a pacifist must be a killer, the same as everybody else.

Would you rather kill or be killed?

Before you answer that, remember you are a pacifist or objector. If you choose to kill, a vivid and gory scene will haunt your dreams for the rest of your life, guilt and shame will hinder your relationships with your partner, your friends and the general public as well, you will avoid strangers for the same reason, you will suffer repeated depression and intractable PTSD, you will never forget and always regret that single act, and you will serve a life sentence in a prison of your own making.

On the other hand, there are drawbacks to getting killed, beyond being dead. For one thing, being a target for your enemy carries a risk that you will be captured or maimed or both. Those outcomes will not diminish your commitment to your beliefs, but you still may find yourself in a prison of your enemy or of your body, with a life sentence as a captive or as a disabled stump of a person. Beyond that, by being dead you’ll cause grief and harm to those who love you or depend on you.

Would you rather kill or be killed?

To clarify, I am talking about the American army during a time when conscription seemed to sneak up on everyone who did not volunteer or have a deferment. At that time, it was nearly impossible to be a conscientious objector unless killing others was absolutely forbidden by your religion.

Conscientious objectors and pacifists were subject to the same draft as everyone else. Conscientious objectors could serve their time in jail rather than in the military if they chose to.

Objectors who rejected serving jail time could be made to serve in non-combatant roles such as hospital corpsman or field medic. Objectors in the field were permitted to carry a weapon for the defense of their patients and themselves.

I understand that this thread is largely about the British military. I think we can continue discussing pacifists. I just wanted to clarify my OP.

I'd sooner be killed, every time, but what sort of mug goes in the Army? I was in the RAF learning Chinese, like a sensible person.

iolo wrote: ↑Fri May 04, 2018 2:08 pm I'd sooner be killed, every time, but what sort of mug goes in the Army? I was in the RAF learning Chinese, like a sensible person.

Most US soldiers were conscripted for 2 years, usually for infantry, artillery and air cavalry. Some volunteered for 3 years in the Army in order to select a support role. Some joined the Air Force or Navy, hoping to be safe. I volunteered to inspect dining facilities and barbershops. Go figure.

While I'm not thinking of suicide, I wish I had been killed. Its been an unbearable burden, yet I expect I’ll have to bear it ‘til the moment I die.

Commonsense - re military roles, you have a most suitable name!