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Re: Either
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:50 pm
by jayjacobus
jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:49 pm
jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:44 pm
Experience is related to matter activity. Matter either creates experience or it creates qualia which this can be experienced by an experiencer. Which one do you think is the correct one? And why?
Qualia is the consciousness' reaction to a sense but a sense is a frame of reference for reality. This is why we have senses. We need references to understand reality. Neither does matter create experience. But it is the referrent(s) for the senses.
I didn't say that quite right. Let me restate the last two sentences. Events through the senses create experiences. Without events there won't be anything to experience and without senses there won't be any represetations to experience.
Re: Either
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm
by bahman
Impenitent wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:42 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:59 am
Impenitent wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:43 am
all you have is the impression, that does not prove externality...
-Imp
Do you believe that nothing can affect you?
"something" could be a hallucination...
-Imp
Aha hallucination. Hallucination is the result of your brain activity. You can distinguish between hallucination and something real. Could the chair you are sitting on it right now be a hallucination?
Re: Either
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:07 pm
by bahman
jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:44 pm
Experience is related to matter activity. Matter either creates experience or it creates qualia which this can be experienced by an experiencer. Which one do you think is the correct one? And why?
Qualia is the consciousness' reaction to a sense but a sense is a frame of reference for reality. This is why we have senses. We need references to understand reality. Neither does matter create experience. But it is the referrent(s) for the senses.
Senses are apparatus which connect us to reality. That is brain which either creates experience or qualia.
Re: Either
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:33 pm
by jayjacobus
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:07 pm
jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:44 pm
Experience is related to matter activity. Matter either creates experience or it creates qualia which this can be experienced by an experiencer. Which one do you think is the correct one? And why?
Qualia is the consciousness' reaction to a sense but a sense is a frame of reference for reality. This is why we have senses. We need references to understand reality. Neither does matter create experience. But it is the referrent(s) for the senses.
Senses are apparatus which connect us to reality. That is brain which either creates experience or qualia.
The brain creates senses which are neither experience nor qualia and that can be determined in any dictionary.
Re: Either
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:23 am
by Impenitent
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm
Impenitent wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:42 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:59 am
Do you believe that nothing can affect you?
"something" could be a hallucination...
-Imp
Aha hallucination. Hallucination is the result of your brain activity. You can distinguish between hallucination and something real. Could the chair you are sitting on it right now be a hallucination?
it could be a dream
one only has access to the impression, not the thing in itself
-Imp
Re: Either
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:47 am
by jayjacobus
The impression is a representation of SOMEthing.
Re: Either
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:53 pm
by bahman
jayjacobus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:33 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:07 pm
jayjacobus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 pm
Qualia is the consciousness' reaction to a sense but a sense is a frame of reference for reality. This is why we have senses. We need references to understand reality. Neither does matter create experience. But it is the referrent(s) for the senses.
Senses are apparatus which connect us to reality. That is brain which either creates experience or qualia.
The brain creates senses which are neither experience nor qualia and that can be determined in any dictionary.
Brain create sense of something. There is however an apparatus which connect brain to the environment. So you believe that brain directly creates experience. Why?
Re: Either
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:55 pm
by bahman
Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:23 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm
Impenitent wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:42 pm
"something" could be a hallucination...
-Imp
Aha hallucination. Hallucination is the result of your brain activity. You can distinguish between hallucination and something real. Could the chair you are sitting on it right now be a hallucination?
it could be a dream
one only has access to the impression, not the thing in itself
-Imp
Could you please answer to the following question instead of repeating your position? Can you get affected by nothing?
Re: Either
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:56 pm
by bahman
jayjacobus wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:47 am
The impression is a representation of SOMEthing.
Yes.
Re: Either
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:20 pm
by Impenitent
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:55 pm
Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:23 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm
Aha hallucination. Hallucination is the result of your brain activity. You can distinguish between hallucination and something real. Could the chair you are sitting on it right now be a hallucination?
it could be a dream
one only has access to the impression, not the thing in itself
-Imp
Could you please answer to the following question instead of repeating your position? Can you get affected by nothing?
impressions of space and time can affect those on which they impress
the only access is to the impression
finis
-Imp
Re: Either
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:26 am
by bahman
Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:20 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:55 pm
Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:23 am
it could be a dream
one only has access to the impression, not the thing in itself
-Imp
Could you please answer to the following question instead of repeating your position? Can you get affected by nothing?
impressions of space and time can affect those on which they impress
the only access is to the impression
finis
-Imp
We are reasoning here. I agree that we don't have direct access to reality. But reality should be something and not nothing. Therefore reality exists.
Re: Either
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:24 am
by gaffo
Impenitent wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:21 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:55 pm
Impenitent wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:37 pm
perhaps one day Kant would suggest it
-Imp
"the thing in itself is unknowable" refutes itself.
actually, it doesn't
you have perceptions, nothing besides
are your perceptions of an external thing? prove it
-Imp
solipsism - yes. nothing more can be known in this life.
Re: Either
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:30 am
by gaffo
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm
Impenitent wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:42 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:59 am
Do you believe that nothing can affect you?
"something" could be a hallucination...
-Imp
Aha hallucination. Hallucination is the result of your brain activity.
so "they" say.
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm
You can distinguish between hallucination and something real.
no you can't.
to think you can only shows you've never been under the influence of an halucingen.
"reality" changes for a few hours.
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm
Could the chair you are sitting on it right now be a hallucination?
sure can.
you are me just talking to me - all i see/hear/smell/feel/etc is a product of my "mind" (being - right here right now), including that chair you claim as "real".
Re: Either
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:31 am
by gaffo
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:07 pm
Senses are apparatus which connect us to reality. That is brain which either creates experience or qualia.
you make assumptions upon the nature of "senses" and "reality" that empirically cannot be backed up.
Re: Either
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:38 am
by gaffo
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:53 pm
Brain create sense of something.
that is Faith talking.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:53 pm
There is however an apparatus which connect brain to the environment.
note another faith in a distiction of the two above and that the latter actually "Exists" (per your faith) outside yourself (myself of course)