Free will is real

For all things philosophical.

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Belinda
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Re:

Post by Belinda » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:11 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:59 pm
No, we largely have no choice over circumstance, but we always have choice in how we respond to circumstance.

Not an item on your list sez diddly about 'choice'...you describe circumstance only.
That's an empty claim, Henry. If a man is uneducated or indoctrinated into some cult, he lacks choice as to how he is able to respond to circumstances. Poverty itself restricts how a man can respond to circumstances.

It's true that there are some men who in very unfortunate circumstances act like great men of highest principles. I cannot explain how this is so.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:41 pm

"If a man is uneducated"

Education can refine choice, but even a prmitive chooses...or do you believe only the literate can choose, or that only the choices of the literate are to be trusted, or that only the choices of literate are valid?

#

"indoctrinated into some cult"

I think a man chooses to be open to indoctrination.

And a man can choose to be 'un-indoctrinated'.

#

"Poverty itself restricts how a man can respond to circumstances."

No, poverty is the circumstance and a man can choose to wallow in it or choose to look/work for a way out.

#

"It's true that there are some men who in very unfortunate circumstances act like great men of highest principles. I cannot explain how this is so."

I can...some men choose to attempt to rise and some choose to sink.

They choose, each and every one.

Belinda
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Re: Free will is real

Post by Belinda » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:24 pm

Henry Quirk wrote:
Education can refine choice, but even a prmitive chooses...or do you believe only the literate can choose, or that only the choices of the literate are to be trusted, or that only the choices of literate are valid?

#

"indoctrinated into some cult"

I think a man chooses to be open to indoctrination.

And a man can choose to be 'un-indoctrinated'.
Education widens choice so that an educated man has more moral and practical choices than an uneducated man. This is what education is for. Literacy is important for someone to become educated but is only a beginning and early stage.

Democracy,to be effective,needs an educated electorate, otherwise people will not be able to distinguish between what is beneficial and what's not. Education also strengthens a man's ability to withstand cults and other cheats.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:34 pm

"Education widens choice so that an educated man has more moral and practical choices than an uneducated man."

So the PHD is more capable of moral and practical choice than the guy with a GED?

#

"Democracy,to be effective,needs an educated electorate, otherwise people will not be able to distinguish between what is beneficial and what's not."

America, today, is more educated than at any time in the past.

I consider its current state a clear refutation of what you're foistin' up.

#

"Education also strengthens a man's ability to withstand cults and other cheats."

Yeah, I'm gonna need to see some evidence of this. In my experience the educated are just as prone to tiltin' at windmills as the uneducated.

Shit, this forum alone is lousy with educated folks toein' the most silly lines.

Belinda
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Re: Free will is real

Post by Belinda » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:47 pm

I think, Henry , that you and I have different ideas of what education means. The man who has a low formal qualification may be better educated than the man with the PhD.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:27 pm

I'm tryin' to point out that it's not 'education' but 'reason'.

Reason can be sharpened and tempered, but if a body doesn't have it to begin with no amount of educating (formal or informal) will matter.

Serendipper
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Re: Free will is real

Post by Serendipper » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:39 pm

Belinda wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:47 pm
I think, Henry , that you and I have different ideas of what education means. The man who has a low formal qualification may be better educated than the man with the PhD.
I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. - Mark Twain

Belinda
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Re:

Post by Belinda » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:41 am

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:27 pm
I'm tryin' to point out that it's not 'education' but 'reason'.

Reason can be sharpened and tempered, but if a body doesn't have it to begin with no amount of educating (formal or informal) will matter.
But many slow learners can be helped with the basics. That is what special needs teachers work at. Anyway, most people are not congenitally slow .

Sometimes someone seems to be stupid when really what's wrong with them is that they have been emotionally damaged, and in such cases education merges with therapy to help them to get insight into why they are suffering.

Serendipper, Mark Twain said it right :) !

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:41 pm

Okay, now that that's all cleared up...

Free will (choosing, self-direction) is (as) real (as the nose on your face).

Your experience of yourself in the world confirms this.

So: why do so many here deny what they know in their bones is true?

Serendipper
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Re: Re:

Post by Serendipper » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:48 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:41 am
henry quirk wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:27 pm
I'm tryin' to point out that it's not 'education' but 'reason'.

Reason can be sharpened and tempered, but if a body doesn't have it to begin with no amount of educating (formal or informal) will matter.
But many slow learners can be helped with the basics. That is what special needs teachers work at. Anyway, most people are not congenitally slow .

Sometimes someone seems to be stupid when really what's wrong with them is that they have been emotionally damaged, and in such cases education merges with therapy to help them to get insight into why they are suffering.

Serendipper, Mark Twain said it right :) !
A long time ago I used to say that I have never met a stupid person as I could learn something from anyone, but now I may be, as you say, emotionally damaged :(

I'm just irritated, especially since social networking, that people dogmatically cling to their ideas and aren't open to reproof. Those who can quickly admit they are wrong will excel beyond those who cannot, since dogmatic digging-in acts as a blockage to further progress (explains knowledge progressing one funeral at a time), so we may divide the smart from the stupid simply by dividing the egotists from the humble. That's where I'm at with it nowadays.

In the future, employers may well begin to start testing these abilities in place of IQ; Google has already announced that it plans to screen candidates for qualities like intellectual humility, rather than sheer cognitive prowess.

Fortunately, wisdom is probably not set in stone – whatever your IQ score. “I’m a strong believer that wisdom can be trained,” says Grossmann. He points out that we often find it easier to leave our biases behind when we consider other people, rather than ourselves. Along these lines, he has found that simply talking through your problems in the third person (“he” or “she”, rather than “I”) helps create the necessary emotional distance, reducing your prejudices and leading to wiser arguments. Hopefully, more research will suggest many similar tricks.

The challenge will be getting people to admit their own foibles. If you’ve been able to rest on the laurels of your intelligence all your life, it could be very hard to accept that it has been blinding your judgement. As Socrates had it: the wisest person really may be the one who can admit he knows nothing.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2015041 ... ing-clever

Smart people are a dime-a-dozen to google, but humility is somewhat rare.

Serendipper
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Re:

Post by Serendipper » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:54 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:41 pm
Okay, now that that's all cleared up...

Free will (choosing, self-direction) is (as) real (as the nose on your face).

Your experience of yourself in the world confirms this.

So: why do so many here deny what they know in their bones is true?
They need to be rid of god and have no other theory to support the idea of freewill.

Alan Watts explained it as graduating from the Ceramic Model to the Fully Automatic Model by eliminating the potter, but keeping the creation and simply labeling it "automatic" (deterministic).

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:22 pm

"They need to be rid of god and have no other theory to support the idea of freewill."

Mebbe so.

I think the answer is closer to home, though.

Responsibility (the lack of) often goes hand 'n hand with denials of free will. I'm thinkin' the anti-free willers are (desperately) lookin' for some kind of universal absolution ('yes, I did that, but it's not my fault! I had no choice in the matter!').

Denying free will is about as universal as you can get ('you're blameless, and so am I!').

Worst case of 'pullin' the wool over your own eyes' possible.

Serendipper
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Re:

Post by Serendipper » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:47 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:22 pm
"They need to be rid of god and have no other theory to support the idea of freewill."

Mebbe so.

I think the answer is closer to home, though.

Responsibility (the lack of) often goes hand 'n hand with denials of free will. I'm thinkin' the anti-free willers are (desperately) lookin' for some kind of universal absolution ('yes, I did that, but it's not my fault! I had no choice in the matter!').

Denying free will is about as universal as you can get ('you're blameless, and so am I!').

Worst case of 'pullin' the wool over your own eyes' possible.
Well, does freewill necessitate an absolute right and wrong? Instead of one absolving oneself from responsibility, one could simply claim nothing is inherently right or wrong, therefore no absolution necessary. One doesn't need to be rid of freewill to accomplish exoneration.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:11 am

"Well, does freewill necessitate an absolute right and wrong?"

No, but it suggests the possibility, which can't be abided by the deterministic crowd.

#

"One doesn't need to be rid of freewill to accomplish exoneration."

No, but abolishing makes exoneration a damn sight easier.

If the determinist can fictionalize agency, then it's 'do as you will' ('do as you're programmed') and there are no consequences (sez the determinist).

'Bio-automation is what you are' is what it comes down to...organic machines...philosophical zombies.

I think I'm sumthin' more than that: self-responsible and -directing.

And: it's obvious to me the same applies to every one else too.

Serendipper
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Re:

Post by Serendipper » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:45 am

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:11 am
"Well, does freewill necessitate an absolute right and wrong?"

No, but it suggests the possibility, which can't be abided by the deterministic crowd.

#

"One doesn't need to be rid of freewill to accomplish exoneration."

No, but abolishing makes exoneration a damn sight easier.

If the determinist can fictionalize agency, then it's 'do as you will' ('do as you're programmed') and there are no consequences (sez the determinist).

'Bio-automation is what you are' is what it comes down to...organic machines...philosophical zombies.

I think I'm sumthin' more than that: self-responsible and -directing.

And: it's obvious to me the same applies to every one else too.
Well, if someone believes they are a robot, then there is nothing wrong with locking them up and tossing the key or simply decommissioning the bot because, after all, it's just a machine with an irreparable fault. It wouldn't be an argument I'd put forth.

What determines fault? The whims of the robots with the guns, of course.

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