~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

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Nick_A
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Nick_A » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:40 pm

"Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." ~ Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Does the bodily part of our collective self along with organic life on earth exist or is it just an illusion? If it doesn't then there is no use arguing about an illusion. Suppose it does but we are not able to experience what we are since we are governed by imagination? Then Simone offers an extraordinary observation. It isn"t our ego that is the problem but rather what has happened to it. What if we could be conscious egoists? What if we could consciously experience the external world as it is rather than as an interpretation, What would we be capable of? Would we consider ourselves citizens of the world or aware that we are just visiting?

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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by thedoc » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:03 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:12 pm
Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:45 pm

Will you be paying the creators for your plagarised images?
And will you be paying the sheep for their wool - Or paying the tree for it's apples?
Usually people who pay for the end product have paid for the beginning product. The tree and the sheep do get paid for the product, not necessarily in money, but in the care they need.

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:15 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:... The active member who you are having this interaction with is defending and experiencing the default state of consciousness. ...
No I'm not, I'm questioning the bullshit of gnus who cannot provide the techniques nor methods to achieve the states that they yak about. Me, I can give you a whole host of them that will give insight into other states of thinking and thoughting and on top of that I can tell you the path to enlightenment but you'll be too lazy to take it.
[/b]
That member will never be a philosopher. Will never experience an extended state of self-consciousness. ...
And you know this how?
However they will be able to defend the default perspective of the world.
:lol: 'default perspective', what a gnu you are. You have no clue what a western philosopher is as one, you've never bothered to read them and two, you mistake them for mystic gurus.
The member you were interacting with not only unconsciously defended an inherently inferior non-philosophical position. You allowed them to think they won...
lmao! Is this the position of an 'enlightened' one?

I understand why you support the other poster as like you they think others creative outputs are theirs to use without recompense for their own self-aggrandisement.

Will you be paying the owner for that image you stole?

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Dontaskme
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:03 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:40 pm
"Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." ~ Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Does the bodily part of our collective self along with organic life on earth exist or is it just an illusion? If it doesn't then there is no use arguing about an illusion. Suppose it does but we are not able to experience what we are since we are governed by imagination? Then Simone offers an extraordinary observation. It isn"t our ego that is the problem but rather what has happened to it. What if we could be conscious egoists? What if we could consciously experience the external world as it is rather than as an interpretation, What would we be capable of? Would we consider ourselves citizens of the world or aware that we are just visiting?
Everything exists right here and now. This is not an illusion or imagined. Herenow, is just what it is, as it is.

Imagination is when the mind of thought is residing else-where ..other than herenow, if it's in the past or the future, then that's imagination and not real time actuality...but right now in this immediate moment is where all the real un-created infinite creation is ever unfolding upon itself. What ever is happening right now spontaneously is the only real thing happening. The observer is not visiting or passing through, it's what's being observed that is passing through, here today gone tomorrow, like streaks of water colour painted upon a stream.

Images that do stick around, are frozen thought in time and space. But the observer is outside of realtime and space. The observer is herenow nowhere.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:05 pm

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........................................................................Excellent.




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Dontaskme
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:06 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:31 pm

An actual philosopher will put the effort into understanding and experiencing a higher state of consciousness. What Ouspensky calls the third state of consciousness; Self-consciousness. That is the outlook and state that you were defining as you developed your premises and thesis. In that superior, philosophical state that you so artistically defined, we see ourselves as objects - no different than other objects within this three dimensional universe that we perceive. In that state you understand how what we consider as ownership changes...Well done & thank you.
Thanks for understanding what I'm writing Bill. Yes, you understood it perfectly.

When we see ourselves as an object, we by default become that object completely over looking the fact that the object is just an appearance in us. Sometimes we fail to see that we exist prior to any known object ever being recognised or remembered. AWARENESS being primary, fundamental and always first. It's the eternal unborn unmoving still silent SELF without an object.

We miss that part of us, as our attention is constantly being drawn elsewhere where it becomes fixated on an object, so the object becomes something to possess, as we cannot see what is seeing the object. (except to say the mystic is the one who is able to see the seer - and knows instinctively that that which is seen is inseparable from the seer, they are one in the same moment, and that the seen changes, but the seer never changes)

The SELF being the immutable formless energy that is able to transmute itself into myriad of forms...but it's all the one self doing this, so nothing is ever harmed or lost..only in the illusory play of duality are things lost or harmed. The real self looks on in detachment.

Identification with objects as being things separate to our awareness of them, creates the illusion that they are something to be possessed.
We can lose possessions, but we can never lose our awareness, we can never lose our capacity to be. For example, we can lose an arm or a leg, or half our brain and still be...or we can lose all our possessions and still be. This is what I mean about not losing anything, we cannot lose the essence of who and what we are essentially.

As awareness we simply cannot experience our self as an object, because we are not the object. The object is an experience awareness is having. an object does not have an experience, because an object doesn't exist outside of the awareness that knows the object.

Objects are perceived in our awareness which is not an object, objects are appearances in it...objects are frozen thoughts, as imaged etc..
Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:31 pm
The active member who you are having this interaction with is defending and experiencing the default state of consciousness.

That member will never be a philosopher. Will never experience an extended state of self-consciousness. However they will be able to defend the default perspective of the world.
This member's responses are programmed to respond in a certain fashion, it's normal accepted responses. It's not until one unplugs them self from their conditioned programming that is not theirs, but other peoples thoughts, they will continue in the same old fashion that is their preferred comfort zone of thinking. It's mostly to do with the fear of what other people think of them and fear of not being right about what they believe they know to be true insofar as the knowledge they have allowed into their life experience. They will not like this message.

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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:40 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:11 am
Show me this 'not-a-thing'? And if it exists then it quite clearly will be a thing just not in this external world.
A thing can only be known in relation to that which is not a thing...otherwise what the heck is a thing?

This is the illusion of knowledge, the illusion that the knower is separate from the known...they are not, they exist as one in the same moment.
There is no external world separate from the thinker. And a thought is not separate from the knower.


All that you are has it's source beyond the sum of the body.There is no higher power deciding your fate.You are the awareness itself. It dwells within every cell, molecule, and atom.Your self realisation comes through your internal journey and the recognition of your truth. When you turn your seeking within, your truth is revealed.
Look to that which cannot be seen in the external world of things but is that which is looking. You are that.

You know this. Everybody knows this. It's who and what you are.

You can take on the half truths of others as your own if that's what you believe also, if someone's truth is not your truth it's because you already know your own truth.

That's what mystics do ..they take what is rightfully their own truth from others, and reject the rest.

What is meant by that is..when a separate self is the claimer of knowledge...this is a half truth. The whole truth is the knower and the known are inseparably one.

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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:05 pm
.




........................................................................Excellent.






Image



A mind expanded by a new idea can never return to its former size.

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Dontaskme
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:59 pm

Look on this website and you will find images that when you direct the cursor of your mouse to the top left hand corner of the image, a share button pops up. Wow! because that's what awakened open minded beings do, they share the good news."Take what is in my hand" ~ Rumi

http://www.esotericonline.net/profiles/ ... nsmutation


Image

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:38 pm

Dontaskme wrote:A thing can only be known in relation to that which is not a thing...otherwise what the heck is a thing? ...
I disagree a thing is known due to it not being another thing.
This is the illusion of knowledge, the illusion that the knower is separate from the known...they are not, they exist as one in the same moment.
There is no external world separate from the thinker. And a thought is not separate from the knower.
Then you'll have to explain how a candle burns down when you are not in the room? You'll have to explain why me and the squirrel both run for the same tree when the wolf is about?
All that you are has it's source beyond the sum of the body.There is no higher power deciding your fate.You are the awareness itself. It dwells within every cell, molecule, and atom. ...
And this is the inconsistency with your words and thoughts as when you wish it suddenly there are atoms, cells and molecule in the world and a source beyond the sum of the body?
Your self realisation comes through your internal journey and the recognition of your truth. When you turn your seeking within, your truth is revealed. Look to that which cannot be seen in the external world of things but is that which is looking. You are that. ...
You seem to have a lot of existential angst.
You know this. Everybody knows this. It's who and what you are. ...
I've told you, who and what I am is a body with senses, memory and language in an external world. The irony is that underneath it all you are an idealist dualist.
You can take on the half truths of others as your own if that's what you believe also, if someone's truth is not your truth it's because you already know your own truth.
Personally I think that because you cannot explain the methods or techniques or situation that led you to believe what you say you are not expressing your truth but just paraphrasing the words of others.
That's what mystics do ..they take what is rightfully their own truth from others, and reject the rest.
Which pretty much explains why they have never raised the human lot.
What is meant by that is..when a separate self is the claimer of knowledge...this is a half truth. The whole truth is the knower and the known are inseparably one.
Not heard of the subject/object distinction then?

By the by I watched your Anil Seth talk and nothing there about there being no external world nor empty awareness nor it all being one 'nothing'. In fact a whole talk about how the body structures our perceptions of the external world and how we are embodied selves.

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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Nick_A » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:12 pm

DaM, I’m unsure of what you consider your true self to be. Consider the Gospel of Thomas:
(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
The higher parts of our collective being can consciously observe the reactions of our lower parts. In this way the observer and observed are ONE. The observer observes in the moment of time. Is this observer what you call your true self?

As I understand it, the action of conscious self observation can allow us to be known from higher consciousness that sees us in eternity rather than just in a moment of time. If this is true we do not have a true self but only the potential for inner unity and a higher quality of being we cannot experience as we are but is our potential.

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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:43 am

Nick_A wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:12 pm
DaM, I’m unsure of what you consider your true self to be. Consider the Gospel of Thomas:
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
Nice Jesus quote.

True self to me just means the ''immutable source energy'' that appears to transmute itself into myriad of energetic forms.
It's the NO-THING...that is EVERYTHING.

All form being the vehicle body that energy uses for expression, to experience itself. An energy that is free in every moment. It seems to me that there is something very still and peaceful underpinning the sense of being alive, and that peace never changes (I call that peace pure awareness)..and within that pure awareness all sorts of energetic happenings arise and fall back into that, while there can appear to be chaos, agitation, and disturbance in this sense of aliveness.The pure awareness is never phased or effected by any of that.That awareness to me, is what the true self is. I call it awareness because I don't know what else to call it.

What can we call this sense of being aliveness? All I know is that it is very peaceful at it's base level, and that chaos is not the natural state of affairs, chaos always succumbs to the peace and tranquillity that is pure awareness because it's the final resting place where everything arises and falls within it.Chaos can arise and dissipate, but peace is the constant unchanging presence, it's all allowing the chaos to be there without ever being affected by it.

The true self is stable.The ego self shifts constantly. The true self is driven by a deeper sense of truth that is beyond everyday shallow thinking where unending demands of "I, me, mine take centre stage.

We know true self is the flip side of the everyday self..because there is the experience of polarities, of both peace and of chaos which has a different quality to peace obviously. While the true self is certain and clear about things. The everyday self of ego gets influenced by countless outside influences, it is easily agitated and disturbed leading to confusion. The true self is more stable and grounded.The true self is love. The ego self sometimes feels lack so it seeks from outside sources to fulfil itself. But, true self IS LOVE, it's totally self fulfilled in every moment.





Nick_A wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:12 pm
The higher parts of our collective being can consciously observe the reactions of our lower parts. In this way the observer and observed are ONE. The observer observes in the moment of time. Is this observer what you call your true self?
The way I am seeing it Nick, ..is that what I am ultimately is the unborn unchanging observer immutable SELF ...observing the changes aka the (experiences) that come and go in this SELF.

And that's all I can say about it, it doesn't need any more detail other than that simple observation...which is no thing being everything.


Nick_A wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:12 pm
As I understand it, the action of conscious self observation can allow us to be known from higher consciousness that sees us in eternity rather than just in a moment of time. If this is true we do not have a true self but only the potential for inner unity and a higher quality of being we cannot experience as we are but is our potential.
Yes, I agree. Knowing we are self conscious gives us a window into two worlds, the eternal world of SELF, and the temporal world of self.

And from that vantage point we hold the potential to be whatever potential is available to us within the laws of physics according to what has been assigned to us as humans. The human being as far as I understand is just another experience that the one energy or spirit is having.

That's all I can see right now Nick...

.



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Dontaskme
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:11 pm

Dontaskme wrote:A thing can only be known in relation to that which is not a thing...otherwise what the heck is a thing? ...
Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:38 pm
I disagree a thing is known due to it not being another thing.
What knows? ...and is that knower a thing?

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Dontaskme
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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:19 pm

This is the illusion of knowledge, the illusion that the knower is separate from the known...they are not, they exist as one in the same moment.
There is no external world separate from the thinker. And a thought is not separate from the knower.
Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:38 pm
Then you'll have to explain how a candle burns down when you are not in the room? You'll have to explain why me and the squirrel both run for the same tree when the wolf is about?
I've already explained this to you before. To know anything, you first have to be there to witness it, to experience it.

The knower and known have to exist in the same moment. You are standing in a room watching a candle burning down, it's known that the candle burns down because you are watching it. The knower and known are inseparably one event in the exact same moment. Can that which is observing the candle burning down be separate from the candle burning down. Both the knower and the known exist there in the same moment, in the same space, in the same awareness.

The candle burning down is now a fragment of knowledge in your awareness held as memory.
Now, Awareness can be without knowledge, it doesn't need to know anything in order to be..but knowledge cannot be or exist without awareness, so the candle burning down is already known to you in memory. That's how a candle can burn down when your not in the room to watch it..simply because the candle burning down is a memory, and when the demand for that memory is not called for, it doesn't exist.

The observer doesn't need to be in the room at the same time candles are burning down to know that candles do burn down...for it is already known to the observer as memory.




Does this answer your question?

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Re: ~ The Brilliant Light of the Spotless Sun Now Shines Upon the New Citizen of the World ~

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:58 pm

Dontaskme wrote:... Does this answer your question?

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It explains your view of things but how do you explain if you and I leave the room when we get back we both see the candle burnt to the same length?

You also haven't answered how me and the squirrel both run for the same tree when the wolf is about?

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