The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

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Nick_A
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Nick_A » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:35 am

uwot wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:13 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:23 pm
The difference between the secular mind and the universlist’s mind is the origin of meaning. The secularist relies on bottom up reason while the universalist begins with top down reason
What do you think of theists like Stephen Meyer and William Lane Craig who argue that you can demonstrate the existence of god with bottom up reasoning?
I don't see how. A person can say that the living machine we call organic life on earth as a whole which eats itself and reproduces is too complex to be an accident. But it will always be argued. Secularists must claim it just appears while the universalist posits a source.

I have a simple approach. Is it more probable that creation is the lawful expression of no-thing or nothing? No-thing is the ineffable pure consciousness with everything in it as potential. Nothing in contrast is void of potential. it is dead matter. Since nothing is dead and by definition cannot create anything I prefer to begin with the premise of no-thing and and the universal structure it creates through the interactions of universal laws allowing creation to serve its purpose as the Body of God. The question becomes what part Man on earth plays within the body.

Nick_A
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Nick_A » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 am

DaM
I totally agree Nick, everything occurs in the instant, it's neither higher or lower but here now this instant...higher and lower being conceptual (interpretations) of that which is always aware in the instant... compared with that which is unaware of the always aware instant.
The higher reality instant being prior to any interpretation, and yet not prior in the sense it it always this instantaneous moment...and that data is always accessed through the mind body mechanism ..kind of like there is a silent downloading of data that comes streaming into the brain on demand, and that demand is like a contact of surfaces, the universal non-local higher self in contact with it's temporal local lower self...and when that contact is made...the brain is going through a process of data recognition, it's remembering itself.. and that's how thought is born, aka the mind of knowledge is born, knowledge become known to itself...via that self to self contact.

Correct me if that's wrong Nick? this is just my way of expressing this in words...and my way of interpreting what you said.


We do have our differences. To begin with we are not God. The human soul when it is created is unified in the image of God in the same way low C on the piano is in the image of high C. The topic of this thread is an important topic. You must remember that we exist in Plato’s cave and function in imagination produced by reactions to shadows on the wall. The secular mind exists in this way but doesn’t realize it. Even worse the religious mind more often than not becomes corrupted producing all sorts of secularized religion and New Age ideas just making things worse.. So my concern is the potential for some human beings to become philosopher kings in practice. A philosopher king has experienced knowledge that you are drawn to. At the same time they have acquired the emotional quality necessary to open to eternal values and the ability to have the lower parts of their essence act in accordance with this knowledge and emotional quality. Of course you will say fat chance but keeping the ideas and efforts alive are essential for society to retain a conscious influence. The weakness of the secular mind strengthens the secular influence in society and the self serving imagination it produces which must lead to chaos and destruction. I support the minority keeping the ancient ideas alive both for individuals and society as a whole.

It is obvious how you are drawn to the Source. Read this article from the Parabola Magazine facebook page. Parabola is my favorite magazine dealing with the question of meaning. It may give you some additional insights into what it means to see. Becoming capable of seeing isn’t escapism. It requires efforts most will avoid. But if you can experience that we are not God you may receive help from above.


https://parabola.org/2017/01/22/four-me ... appelbaum/

Walker
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Walker » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am

uwot wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:15 am
Ok. We can play this game. You be the inspector, and I will accept any premise you choose.
Nick just offered one for a Socratic dialogue, your preferred venue, which is a game?

Dig in.

I prefer what I described.

:)

uwot
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by uwot » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 am

Walker wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
Nick just offered one for a Socratic dialogue...
This one?
Creation is the lawful expression of an ineffable pure consciousness with everything in it as potential.
Walker wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
...your preferred venue, which is a game?
Here is just fine.
Walker wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
I prefer what I described.
You're the inspector.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:27 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 am

We do have our differences. To begin with we are not God. The human soul when it is created is unified in the image of God in the same way low C on the piano is in the image of high C. The topic of this thread is an important topic. You must remember that we exist in Plato’s cave and function in imagination produced by reactions to shadows on the wall.
Thanks for the link.

So we are not God, we are the image of God.

And the title of personhood, aka the name given to us by our parents is just an imagined shadow that we are reacting to? while in reality we are the image of God.

Is that right?

.

Walker
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Walker » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:24 am

uwot wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 am
You're the inspector.
Only for what I have custodial responsibility, which is not your games, and not elevators for the public.

Nick_A
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Nick_A » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:21 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:27 am
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 am

We do have our differences. To begin with we are not God. The human soul when it is created is unified in the image of God in the same way low C on the piano is in the image of high C. The topic of this thread is an important topic. You must remember that we exist in Plato’s cave and function in imagination produced by reactions to shadows on the wall.
Thanks for the link.

So we are not God, we are the image of God.

And the title of personhood, aka the name given to us by our parents is just an imagined shadow that we are reacting to? while in reality we are the image of God.

Is that right?

.
No. A human soul is in the image of God. We are not the unity of a human soul. we exist as a plurality of parts lacking inner unity. Being in the image of God or a son of God is our evolutionary potential. We give a name to an imagined unity but in reality we are a plurality. DaM is a plurality with the potential for the inner unity of intellect, emotion, and sensation.

uwot
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by uwot » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:14 pm

Walker wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:24 am
uwot wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 am
You're the inspector.
Only for what I have custodial responsibility, which is not your games, and not elevators for the public.
Game, eh? Well that was an easy win. In a thread proclaiming the weakness of the progressive mind, it's ironic that you don't feel able to stand up to one.

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Dontaskme
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:14 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:21 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:27 am
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 am

We do have our differences. To begin with we are not God. The human soul when it is created is unified in the image of God in the same way low C on the piano is in the image of high C. The topic of this thread is an important topic. You must remember that we exist in Plato’s cave and function in imagination produced by reactions to shadows on the wall.
Thanks for the link.

So we are not God, we are the image of God.

And the title of personhood, aka the name given to us by our parents is just an imagined shadow that we are reacting to? while in reality we are the image of God.

Is that right?

.
No. A human soul is in the image of God. We are not the unity of a human soul. we exist as a plurality of parts lacking inner unity. Being in the image of God or a son of God is our evolutionary potential. We give a name to an imagined unity but in reality we are a plurality. DaM is a plurality with the potential for the inner unity of intellect, emotion, and sensation.
Okay..I get that Nick..and I agree with you...for some reason I’m able to grasp what you are saying....it took a few reads, but then it just clicked...so thanks.

.

Well explained bye the way....


Its really difficult to talk about the subject of god isn’t it...but I know god exists, so I don’t care if others don’t believe....I know god is real.

.

Walker
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Walker » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:53 pm

uwot wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:14 pm
Walker wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:24 am
uwot wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 am
You're the inspector.
Only for what I have custodial responsibility, which is not your games, and not elevators for the public.
Game, eh? Well that was an easy win. In a thread proclaiming the weakness of the progressive mind, it's ironic that you don't feel able to stand up to one.
You called it.

So, you yourself are afflicted with the weakness of the Progressive mind.

You're one of them there Progs.

You have the condolences of compassionate folks everywhere.

:lol:

After I explain an alternative method of learning at the request of SF, and after I provide rudimentary explainations of the Socratic method and its limitations, you somehow conclude that I think your approach is appropriate in this venue, under these conditions.

You’ve also confirmed an earlier curiosity, and the answer is, conscious.

I have no need to play your childish, trollish games.

Indeed, after what I’ve written about what nitwits do with the Socratic method, the irony would be if I did have such a need.

Feeding you has revealed that your intent is distraction rather than truth.

Further feeding would be to join you in a conspiracy of derailment.

Walker
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Walker » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:21 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:37 pm
Walker wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:41 pm
The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber, by Hemingway, shows the eternal value of power fearlessly facing power and the implications, without naming a tidy label.
How is the instinctive reaction creating the effect of power vs power an eternal value rather than just an indication of the eternal value of the conscious struggle for evolution?
Re: instinctive reaction:

Ever notice a cat when it is stalking?

It is physically locked onto another's awareness and attention.

Far too complex a behavior to be dismissed as an instinctive reaction from such a complex mammal.

But, they have such little brains, says the scientist.

Progressive Options?
- Adjust the concept of complexity, i.e., change the language.

Example:
Global cooling ... global warming ... climate change ... global cooling again ... the sky is falling .... and so on.

Nick_A
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Nick_A » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:58 pm

DaM
Its really difficult to talk about the subject of god isn’t it...but I know god exists, so I don’t care if others don’t believe....I know god is real.
Have you noticed that topics that make a person feel insignificant always provoke animosity. A person’s opinion of themselves, their ego, revolts against it. It is understandable but harmful. God is an essential idea which should be contemplated. But the secular mind intent on self justification will do what it can to eliminate intentional conscious contemplation in society through ridicule. Jacob Needleman describes the beginning of wonder and the damaging attitude towards God contemplation that has become so prevalent wherever the poison of arrogant secularism is dominant. It cripples the natural yearning of the inner man. That is why we have to keep respect for the inner search alive. You and I both believe in God. That is the beginning. We cannot expect the secular mind to respect it but we can respect it in ourselves.

The Greta mind types will always be around.
We just can’t allow it to damage something in us after we have experienced the first breath. We have two essential questions: what is God and what is Man? If we are honest we admit that we don't know the answer to either so must become open to conscious contemplation and the human quality of conscious attention which enables it to feel the reality of these essential questions.
“To think about God is to the human soul what breathing is to the human body.

I say to think about God, not necessarily to believe in God–that may or may not come later.

I say: to think about God.” ~Jacob Needleman in What Is God? p. 3
More and more, as I see it now, this heartless way of thinking about God and ultimate reality dominates the mind of the contemporary world. For God or against God, “belief” or “atheism,” it makes no difference unless the inner yearning— or whatever we wish to call the cause and source of the “second breathing” — is there. And it can so easily be there, just as it can so easily be covered over and ignored, perhaps for the rest of one’s life. God or not God, “belief” or “science” — it also makes no real difference for my personal life unless the call of the Self and its need to “breathe” is heard and, ultimately, respected. Not only can thought about ultimate reality make no difference to the world or to my personal life unless we hear and respect the call of the Self, but such empty thought can bring down our personal and collective world, even our Earth itself. When thought races ahead of Being, a civilization is racing toward destruction.

Jacob Needleman: What Is God?

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Greta
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Greta » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:39 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:58 pm
The Greta mind types will always be around.
Well, that's at least one cause for optimism in the world.

Nick, you problem is simple - you have advanced rhetorical skills but undeveloped reasoning and analytical skills. For years now we have followed the worn tracks of these faulty rhetorical circles and there is only one major sticking point - certainty.

I would agree with a number of your posts (aside from replying to your constant stream of ad hominem attacks against me, even when I'm not in the discussion) except for your pretentious over-certainty.

All you (and DAM) need to do is stop presenting your speculative ideas as established fact. Just admit that they are speculative ideas, and not speak as though your posts are the gospel truth. In other words, stop preaching and start discussing.

Most of the interesting esoteric ideas you and DAM have presented I'd either thought of or read about beforehand. It's not the content that bothers me but your over-certainty. You keep on defensively assuming that I am attacking the point itself and then wrongly presume that I don't understand.

These are the kinds of words missing from your posts that need to be there if you are to be taken at all seriously (which you have largely not yet achieved): possibly, perhaps, maybe, apparently, probabilities, seemingly.

Use qualifiers appropriately and I'd expect your posts to be much better received. However, I don't think you want that; you'd rather the attention.

uwot
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by uwot » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:34 am

Walker wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:53 pm
I have no need to play your childish, trollish games.
You're a hard one to please, Walker. I stick out my chin, tie my hands behind my back, offer you a blank sheet to write the rules and you still worry I'm cheating.

Walker
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Re: The Weakness of the Progressive Mind

Post by Walker » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:15 am

You missed mention of trudging across the tundra, mile after mile.

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