~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

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Bill Wiltrack
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~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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At this point ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~ is in the eyes of the beholder. In the eyes, mind, & intuition of the beholder...

Is this ~ New Emerging Asset Class ~ property? - As it is defined by the IRS.

Is it - money? - As is defined by the Treasury Department.

Is it - a commodity? - As it is defined by the CFTC.

Is it a security? - As defined by the SEC.


Could this new emerging asset class be ALL OF THESE yet NONE OF THESE previously defined cauldrons of value?


This new emerging asset class yet to be fully defined or understood is cryptocurrency; Bitcoin.


Before this new cauldron of value is defined for you...what does your intuition tell you it is?


How do you approach this?


Do you actually define this new, emerging asset class or does this emerging asset class define you?


Who are you? - One of the most basic tenants & query of all true philosophy.


Does, at this point in time, this new emerging asset class define who you are? - based upon your reaction to this thread.


We are actually no longer the active centerpiece in this previously very centralized environment.

We are now just a clog in the wholy new framework that is quickly lunging towards decentralization.


That is who you are now. That is what we are now. This is what this new, emerging asset class redefines.

Everything. ALL of us. Our countries. Our economies.


This is new philosophy. This is the new philosophy of a new emerging asset class. Unbound by definition.

A continual bareback flow of motion, of value, of philosophy, and of you.









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henry quirk
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Bitcoin

Post by henry quirk »

A passing fancy...a ghost worth nuthin'.

Real money has to represent something, stand in for something.

Used to be gold.

Currently it's 'faith'.

Eventually it's gonna be 'energy' (measured in kilowatt-hours).

Bitcoin (all the crypto-cash): just a shiny notion that won't mean diddy in the long run.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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noted...







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FlashDangerpants
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Bill Wiltrack wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:26 pm
Is this ~ New Emerging Asset Class ~ property? - As it is defined by the IRS.

Is it - money? - As is defined by the Treasury Department.

Is it - a commodity? - As it is defined by the CFTC.

Is it a security? - As defined by the SEC.


Could this new emerging asset class be ALL OF THESE yet NONE OF THESE previously defined cauldrons of value?
Being all of those things at once is bit like saying you have a vegan lentil casserole that is also a bacon sandwich and a pint of beer. 3 completely different things that cannot do the same job.

Just saying "ALL OF THESE yet NONE OF THESE" is like saying you have a drawing of a vegan lentil casserole that is also a bacon sandwich and a pint of beer, and would everybody like taste it?
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Thank you for responding.


I think this is a fascinating & important topic and I was a bit dismayed initially that this thread received little response.


You hit it right on the nose.

Almost reiterating my original post.


The more this new emerging asset class comes into existence the more I see it as simply - more.


Initially I was drawn to the economic aspect of a more secure currency. Now I see the entire arena of cryptocurrency as FREEDOM.

FREEDOM in a Democracy type of way. Freedom FROM centureship.






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Science Fan
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Science Fan »

It's not freedom at all. Far from it. It's simply a repeat of the tulip-bulb mania of the past. Just look at the huge run up in price for bitcoin? So, how are you supposed to make any long-term debt payments with bit-coin when its value fluctuates like that? Either the buyer or the seller, lender or borrower, will get screwed. There is also no way of adding some meaningful inflation factor into a loan involving bitcoin.

If bitcoin's production is limited, then it cannot be used as a general currency, without causing deflation, even if we assume that a currency issuer would accept payment of taxes by bitcoin, and would allow it to compete against a national currency. The limited supply of bitcoin, would cause its price to rise, but that is simply another way of saying that prices of goods and services based on bitcoin would have to fall. Deflation is an excellent way to tank an economy. Isn't the so-called attraction of bitcoin that it is not supposed to be like regular currency that a government increases? But, people haven't thought this through. If bitcoin is not able to expand, then it can only be used as a national currency by causing deflation, which brings about recessions.
Last edited by Science Fan on Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Bill Wiltrack wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:12 pm Initially I was drawn to the economic aspect of a more secure currency. Now I see the entire arena of cryptocurrency as FREEDOM.

FREEDOM in a Democracy type of way. Freedom FROM centureship.
There is an observable cult like tendency to you crypto fanboys, standing around saying "democratic decentralization" with the combined dead voice of a hive mind.
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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

Science Fan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:30 pmIt's not freedom at all. Far from it. It's simply a repeat of the tulip-bulb mania of the past. Just look at the huge run up in price for bitcoin? So, how are you supposed to make any long-term debt payments with bit-coin when its value fluctuates like that? Either the buyer or the seller, lender or borrower, will get screwed. There is also no way of adding some meaningful inflation factor into a loan involving bitcoin.
I think your view is pretty short sited to bitcoin, specifically. There are crypto-currencies with actual utilities behind them beyond simply being used for peer to peer transactions. But as far as making payments, the fluctuations is just something the seller will have take into consideration when doing the transaction. It could actually end up benefiting him. Ideally, we will eventually get crypto-currency backed bank accounts, similar to europac being back by gold assets, to where an amount of crypto currency will automatically be converted into cash when you make the transaction. I think the price will begin to stabilize more when we see more regulation. It's never going to be like trading gold and silver, though.
If bitcoin's production is limited, then it cannot be used as a general currency, without causing deflation, even if we assume that a currency issuer would accept payment of taxes by bitcoin, and would allow it to compete against a national currency. The limited supply of bitcoin, would cause its price to rise, but that is simply another way of saying that prices of goods and services based on bitcoin would have to fall. Deflation is an excellent way to tank an economy. Isn't the so-called attraction of bitcoin that it is not supposed to be like regular currency that a government increases? But, people haven't thought this through. If bitcoin is not able to expand, then it can only be used as a national currency by causing deflation, which brings about recessions.
It doesn't quite work that way for something like a crypto-currency with a fixed supply. Besides the fact that I think it would only receive concernable adoption as money if a conversion-to-cash system is made available, bitcoin can continuously be split into minuscule fractions, and the protocol which allows that is able to be updated to allow for even more divisibility.

Essentially it allows more versatility of 1 given bitcoin without the need of creating more of the currency.
Last edited by Sir-Sister-of-Suck on Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Actually, in the long run, I am not optimistic as to actual overall economic freedom that cryptocurrencies will provide to mankind in-general.


In the short term cryptocurrencies do provide freedom from hyperinflation. For the people of Venezuela, Greece, and Zimbabwe and other countries now & in the near future.


Although most of us here at The PhilosophyNow Forums have not experienced the frightening financial devastation of being on the wrong side of a political party or participating in a demonstration that your particular government does not approve of, these are real infringements upon individual freedom.


For now cryptocurrencies address these & other freedom restrictions.


*PLUS crypto adds a needed layer of protection against hacking and unscrupulous actors.








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Science Fan
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Science Fan »

Sir Sister: Bitcoin does work in the way I described, unless you want to rewrite supply and demand. During the days of the gold standard, because gold was so limited, there was not enough of it to go around, and this caused deflation. Given the limited supply of gold coins, they became more valuable, relative to all goods and services, which is another way of saying prices fell. But if prices fall, one can make money by holding onto cash as opposed to spending it, which sends an economy into a recession. Given the limited supply of bitcoin the same thing would have to happen.

You also missed my point with the risks associated with its price swings. I specifically stated someone may gain as a result, but someone may also get wiped out as well. If you paid your mortgage off in bitcoin, and bitcoin value rises, then you would be paying too much, and if it fell in price, then you'd gain an advantage, but when the price of bitcoin can rapidly change, there is no way to calculate for this risk. Bitcoin cannot be evaluated like a bond or a stock certificate, other than people's demand for bitcoin, its valuation makes no sense, and there is no way to predict, or insure, where that price is headed.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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No doubt. Cryptocurrencies are volatile, seemingly irrational, and, at this point in time, totally based upon speculation of future promises.






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...yet there is an allurement. The hope. The intuition...






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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: ~ The Philosophy of a New Emerging Asset Class ~

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

Science Fan wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:39 pmSir Sister: Bitcoin does work in the way I described, unless you want to rewrite supply and demand. During the days of the gold standard, because gold was so limited, there was not enough of it to go around, and this caused deflation. Given the limited supply of gold coins, they became more valuable, relative to all goods and services, which is another way of saying prices fell. But if prices fall, one can make money by holding onto cash as opposed to spending it, which sends an economy into a recession. Given the limited supply of bitcoin the same thing would have to happen.
I think I'm just confused here, because are we talking about 'deflation' of the US dollar, or of bitcoin? I don't understand how bitcoin can cause USD deflation, in the way that you suggest, when the US dollar isn't backed by bitcoin. It would be the other way around, where the price of USD depresses the price of bitcoin if it goes down. I mean, it's just wealth redistribution. The crypto market can't be worth more money than is put into it, and a large margin of this money is simply coming over from a lot of the overpriced ETFs in the stock market.
You also missed my point with the risks associated with its price swings. I specifically stated someone may gain as a result, but someone may also get wiped out as well. If you paid your mortgage off in bitcoin, and bitcoin value rises, then you would be paying too much, and if it fell in price, then you'd gain an advantage, but when the price of bitcoin can rapidly change, there is no way to calculate for this risk.
People who would choose to do that know what they're getting into. They need to make that judgement for themselves. But again, once (or if) they make a banking system that automatically converts your bitcoin assets to real money for you, this will partially be remedied. I mean obviously, you can already do it yourself manually, but this is the only way I see mainstream adoption to that extent. Right now, crypto currencies should be looked at for what the majority of people are using them for: a speculative investment.
Bitcoin cannot be evaluated like a bond or a stock certificate, other than people's demand for bitcoin, its valuation makes no sense, and there is no way to predict, or insure, where that price is headed.
Now that's just flat out untrue. Many of the same technical indicators, like the 200 day moving average, or looking for positive technical patterns like an ANT graph or ascending wedge, are implemented into crypto-currencies just as they are in the stock market. In fact, a lot of the people who were into technical analysis are coming over to crypto-currencies exactly because most of the same methods can be used interchangeably with the crypto market. These things naturally won't account for positive/negative news and headlines, but that's with any market. But even with FUD, we can get a rough idea of where support is likely going to land.
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