All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Nick_A
Posts: 2737
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Nick_A » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:11 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:57 pm
how do you know that you do not know?

how did you prove that negative?

-Imp
I know I don't know because that is what Greta tells me. Since it is sexist and politically incorrect to argue with a woman it takes priority even though Socrates said "I know nothing."

commonsense
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by commonsense » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:40 pm

We can know that water is wet.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:08 am

Impenitent wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:57 pm
how do you know that you do not know?

how did you prove that negative?

-Imp
The mind knows itself...it says I AM

You have TO exist first to be able to know I AM ..to be able to say it.

The saying of it is the known....but the knower of the known is not known since the knower and the known is the same ONE

How can ONE THING know itself? ....I've no idea?

Therefore, all knowledge is illusory.

And the illusion is real apparently.

The How's and Why's consciousness IS are impossible to answer....for that would need two separate consciousnesses which is impossible.

It's like the gurus and sage have said all along....to be able to claim I AM ...this is perceived, but can that which is the perceiver percieving the perceived...can that ONE be perceived?

Maybe, but only when you look in the mirror...even then, the reflection is only the image of the looker inseparable from it, it's an image of the imagless.

.

.

I have no idea of what I AM ..before I knew I AM ...I have no idea what I AM when I am not I AM...and I have no idea what I AM when I AM except what I make up.

The life of the I AM ..is nothing more than words made of water colour written upon a flowing river.

.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:29 am

commonsense wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:40 pm
We can know that water is wet.

When latent unawareness knows sensation ..consciousness is born ...the known....only the known is born...the knower is unborn.

.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:37 am

Nick_A wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:11 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:57 pm
how do you know that you do not know?

how did you prove that negative?

-Imp
I know I don't know because that is what Greta tells me. Since it is sexist and politically incorrect to argue with a woman it takes priority even though Socrates said "I know nothing."

Greta is the mirror image of the looker...Greta is the looked upon, Greta has no reality in and of herself apart from the looker which cannot be seen except as a reflection, she is an empty image appearing real.

Reflected images and sound inform the looker of it's illusory reality...via language, aka sound...the knower/looker exists, but does not know this until it reflects itself....so the illusion is always real..

This is the absurdity of oneness.

Any arguing is all the same one SELF arguing with itself...For without the reflection of myself I have no way of knowing I exist.

.

The SELF aka AWARENESS doesn't care what stories arise and fall in it ..it doesn't care about words such as sexist and political correctness....this is all insignificant dream story here today gone tomorrow....story cannot defile what I AM ...which is the PURE SELF.

.

commonsense
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by commonsense » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:29 am
commonsense wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:40 pm
We can know that water is wet.
When latent unawareness knows sensation ..consciousness is born ...the known....only the known is born...the knower is unborn.
I was assuming that the knower isn't unborn, however I failed to annunciate any pre-condition. As you pointed out, the knower cannot know that water is wet, and therefore, as your argument goes, that makes my supposition incorrect anyway.

I thank you for this revision/correction. I also wonder how you would handle a knowledge statement that does not require sensation to understand the knowledge nor to evaluate the truthfulness of the knowledge, such as a statement that is wholly symbolic, e.g., "! + @ = #".

"! + @ = #" seems to be a rule-based statement, meaning if the rules are followed the statement is true. In that case, reason would be required, and only reason, rather than experience via sensation, to know that one set of symbols is the same as another symbol.

It seems reasonable to revise the sentence, "When latent unawareness knows sensation ..consciousness is born ...the known....only the known is born...the knower is unborn." to suggest that even though sensation, consciousness and the known are born, the knower would require both the ability to experience and the ability to reason in order to know, and yet the knower does not exist anyway.

I see a problem that maybe you could resolve, though. How is the known separated from the knower? After all, the known would not be known by a knower unless a knower exists, and the knower would not know anything unless an unknown exists, waiting to be known.

Again, thanks for correcting my supposition, and I hope you can solve our problem, else the entire schema of what is born and what isn't comes into question.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:58 am

commonsense wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 pm

I thank you for this revision/correction. I also wonder how you would handle a knowledge statement that does not require sensation to understand the knowledge nor to evaluate the truthfulness of the knowledge, such as a statement that is wholly symbolic, e.g., "! + @ = #".
Thank you too.

All knowledge statements have some form of subtle undertone of sensation within them. Any of the bodies sensory receptors can be involved in knowing...But as for the sense of sight...Symbolic signals inform the brain into making an interpretation ..if recognised, there is instant knowing in the moment. As all recognition/remembering/ is already stored in memory...if there is no recognition .. this just means that a particular brand of knowledge has not entered into the reality that is your mind brain body mechanism yet.
The entire contents of the universe is inside you...and not the other way around, you are not in the universe.
And your experience that is your mind brain body mechanism is just a tiny pin-hole perspective, just one of an infinite experiences within the entire universe as a whole experiencing itself infinitely.

Awareness is infinity right now without beginning nor end..it's unborn, undying perfect brilliant stillness that has to be...for any movement to be possible...but any movement is always within this non-mover, not outside of it. The mind is the mover.
As seen in this zen quote>

Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind. "It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one. "No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second. A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them. "Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said, "It is MIND that moves."


commonsense wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 pm
"! + @ = #" seems to be a rule-based statement, meaning if the rules are followed the statement is true. In that case, reason would be required, and only reason, rather than experience via sensation, to know that one set of symbols is the same as another symbol.
Not sure what you mean, but all I can interpret of this is that you are saying something can be true when we collectively agree via reasoning that it is true. But then again, all reasoning is a subtle form of sensation where the stimulation triggers the capacity to know and be aware.
commonsense wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 pm
It seems reasonable to revise the sentence, "When latent unawareness knows sensation ..consciousness is born ...the known....only the known is born...the knower is unborn." to suggest that even though sensation, consciousness and the known are born, the knower would require both the ability to experience and the ability to reason in order to know, and yet the knower does not exist anyway.
Knowledge informs existence as existing, existence doesn't know it exists.

Where is existence in deep dreamless sleep or in death,?.. and yet you are always present, you are because awareness is a constant presence, and that which is constantly present cannot be born, nor can it die.

Knowing is born of sensation known by the constant presence of awareness, without which no sensation would ever be known...this knowing gives birth to the idea one exists, when awareness becomes aware via sensation, eg: becomes conscious of itself....awareness and consciousness are the same one state, alternating between not-knowing/ knowing....the whole idea there are multiple consciousnesses is an illusion. As awareness is all there is, including the contents of awareness which are the same one appearing as the many.

So in essence, experience, knowledge and reasoning are what appear to be born here, while all this is known in awareness that is not born....awareness is not an experience, it is the experiencing.

Awareness is the constant that has to be prior to anything being known... becoming conscious of itself...(knows) come and go in this constant presence inseparable from it...awareness does not come and go, it's unborn.

There can be awareness without knowledge...but there CANNOT be knowledge without awareness. No thing has ever been born, only the mind of knowledge is born which is inseparable from the awareness of it.


commonsense wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 pm
I see a problem that maybe you could resolve, though. How is the known separated from the knower? After all, the known would not be known by a knower unless a knower exists, and the knower would not know anything unless an unknown exists, waiting to be known.
The known is never separated from the knower, because knower and known are one in the same instant. The mind divides oneness into two via knowledge known...but that which is known is not the knower, that which is known cannot know anything, for it is already known in awareness which is oneness...so there is no other knower to know apart from unborn constant awareness.
commonsense wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 pm
Again, thanks for correcting my supposition, and I hope you can solve our problem, else the entire schema of what is born and what isn't comes into question.
Any problem is mis-identification with the wrong I ..Awareness is the original I aka the SELF ....the self is not the mind that claims I am the self. The I AM is prior to any claiming by the mind...in other words only the mind aka the idea of you is born ..not Awareness...the idea is known by awareness.

Everything is known....and yet no ''things'' have ever been seen, they're just ideas, empty images of imageless awareness.

We only know things, but we have never seen them as literal things that have existence INDEPENDENTLY in and of them selves. Things have no existence of their own apart from the seer / knower...which cannot be seen and known...for it is the seeing and knowing...ALL ONE

.

.

commonsense
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by commonsense » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:56 pm

Is what you are saying inspired by Tractatus?

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:57 am

commonsense wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:56 pm
Is what you are saying inspired by Tractatus?

This word Tractatus does not compute?

Impenitent
Posts: 1796
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Impenitent » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:59 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:57 am
commonsense wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:56 pm
Is what you are saying inspired by Tractatus?

This word Tractatus does not compute?
and that's what Ludwig said...

-Imp

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:29 am

Impenitent wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:59 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:57 am
commonsense wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:56 pm
Is what you are saying inspired by Tractatus?

This word Tractatus does not compute?
and that's what Ludwig said...

-Imp
:D


Every pin-hole perspective is a sneak preview into what you can achieve..become, be. If he can do it then so can you..you are limitless.. limited by your own invented limited beliefs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnvmXhcDY7s

.

Where else would these goosebumps come from other than that which goes bump in the dark.

.

Art is natural..nature is artificial.

.

The picture is in the artist...the artist is not in the picture....the picture is an image of the artist....the imprint.

I've left my fingerprints all over this God Dam place.

.

commonsense
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Post by commonsense » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:28 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:29 am
Impenitent wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:59 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:57 am
This word Tractatus does not compute?
and that's what Ludwig said...
-Imp
Don't be afraid to update your computer.
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:29 am
...you are limitless... limited by your own invented limited beliefs.

Where else would these goosebumps come from other than that which goes bump in the dark.

Art is natural..nature is artificial..

The picture is in the artist...the artist is not in the picture....the picture is an image of the artist....
...more lyrical than logical.

Have you been intentionally obfuscating from the get-go? To wit:

“[W]e know absolutely nothing of any beginning or ending to life…We do know that we are temporal organisms…We know that temporal life forms have beginnings and endings.” Do we, or do we not, know that temporal beings have beginnings and endings? Are we, or are we not, temporal beings with beginnings and endings?

“Common sense, common knowledge, intuition says it.” If the basis of this discussion is that everyone in common already agrees with it, why bother with it?

“[A]ppearances are not what you think, nor are they otherwise.” So appearances are not what you think and they are not not what you think.

“This is simple logic[!]”This is jibberish.

“Only drunk people speak jibberish, the ones who know intuitively are the stone cold soberists. Those ones never look back at what is dead, those ones look in the same one direction.” Are you drunk?

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:51 pm

Reply to common sense.

Temporal beings are the variables ..appearances within constant presence.

Movement is an appearance within stillness.

Change is an appearance within the changeless.

The Nonduality SELF ...is both and yet neither.

Direct experience informs this irrefutable knowing.


Take it or leave it...makes no difference ....nothing will change.

.

User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:01 pm

Changeless doesn’t need change to be...but change needs changeless to be.

Change is relative to that which never changes....the absolute irrefutable reality...here now nowhere.

Stillness doesn’t need movement to be, but movement needs stillness to be.

Silence doesn’t need sound to be, but sound needs silence to be.

.

Nothing is permanent.

Nothing is real.

.

commonsense
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: All We Can Know Is We Don't Know.

Post by commonsense » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:41 pm

Whaa...?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests