My new support for hedonism

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MozartLink
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by MozartLink »

Science Fan wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:42 pm There is no support for the idea that our emotions determine what is moral.

It should also be noted that there is the proper use of biological science and an improper use, which is becoming increasingly common these days. I can find numerous so-called public intellectuals who claim such things as intelligence is biologically determined and one can't change it. This is pseudoscience. It's a claim made to "justify" the mistreatment of millions. The real biology tells us that biological determinism is rare, and certainly does not occur with respect to intelligence. Hundreds of genes are involved, all contributing a small amount, and their contribution is dependent upon the environment. Since, for the most part, biologists have rejected biological determinism with respect to such things as intellect and behavior, I fail to see how we could ever have a biological determinism regarding either values or morality.
Well, let me just say this. I disagree with the idea that I am the one delusional and in denial. My own personal experience definitely says my emotions allow me to perceive my life as something horrible or beautiful. I have experienced horrible emotional states in my nightmares. They were horrible states to be in far beyond anything imaginable.

There is no words to describe how horrible they were and they were completely different than the horrible ones in my waking life. They were far more disturbing and far more horrible than any emotional state I could ever experience in my waking life since we experience things far more beautiful and far more horrible in dream states than we do in our waking life.

A dream state is like going very deep into our own minds and, as a result, we experience things far more profoundly than we do in our waking life. Intellect is just words and ideas and words/ideas alone cannot allow me to experience something so horrible. Words and ideas alone also cannot allow me to experience the sheer beauty and joy that my positive emotions bring my life.

I think we as human beings need to live by a whole new standard of value. It is a standard that goes beyond words and ideas. As I explain later on, our positive emotions are like a divine life force of pure beauty and joy experienced within our conscious being. These are values that transcend words and ideas. No other value standard/system can ever compare to this.

Sure, I have used words in describing what my emotions are like for me. But the emotions themselves are a form of beauty, joy, and horror that transcends words since emotions are not value judgments founded upon words and ideas, but value judgments founded upon how we feel. They are feeling judgments rather than intellectual judgments.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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All due respect, think you are a bit confused on knowing yourself and labeling your functions as a human.

I am, in no way, discounting the horror that you must have felt at one point.


I think I understand you.
Connotation of a few words only - perhaps separates you & the responses that you have had here so far...


Good luck
in whatever your focus is within this thread.





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Atla
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by Atla »

So people who enjoy and find value in killing others, should just keep pressing that nuclear button, it's the most valuable thing they can possibly do?

Your idea is pure genius..
MozartLink
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by MozartLink »

Bill Wiltrack wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:10 pm .






All due respect, think you are a bit confused on knowing yourself and labeling your functions as a human.

I am, in no way, discounting the horror that you must have felt at one point.


I think I understand you.
Connotation of a few words only - perhaps separates you & the responses that you have had here so far...


Good luck
in whatever your focus is within this thread.





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But, by describing them as feelings of joy, beauty, and horror, you would be admitting that they really were horrible, beautiful, and joyful feelings. So, you would be admitting that these feelings really do make my life horrible, joyful, and beautiful. Therefore, you have just contradicted yourself when you told me that you didn't discount the feelings of horror I experienced, but, at the same time, denied the idea of my emotions being the source of horrible and beautiful value in my life. I am now going to point out something else here which would hopefully prove to everyone how our emotions really are the perception of value as I say.

Positive emotions are the reward wanting and liking as pointed out by this study. I will give the link to the study soon enough. If you were to conduct a survey and ask many people if their positive emotions are a form of wanting and liking, they would say "no." These people would instead tell you that it is their morality and intellect which allows them to want and like things. This also shows here that these people are in denial when it comes to their positive emotions because they deny the fact that they are a form of wanting and liking.

It is through our positive emotions that we want and like things such as if you felt excited about the idea of getting a new movie or video game. Since people are in denial, then why would you expect me to trust them when they make the claim that their morality and intellect is a real form of value and a real form of wanting and liking in their lives? I have only my own personal experience to go by and I cannot trust humanity no matter the things they say. With all of this being said, here is the study:
We have found a special hedonic hotspot that is crucial for reward 'liking' and 'wanting' (and codes reward learning too). The opioid hedonic hotspot is shown in red above. It works together with another hedonic hotspot in the more famous nucleus accumbens to generate pleasure 'liking'.

‘Liking’ and ‘wanting’ food rewards: Brain substrates and roles in eating disorders

Kent C. Berridge 2009 Mar 29.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717031/
Now, as pointed out in that food and reward study, our positive emotions are the reward wanting and liking. When you want something and like something, this means it matters to you. When something matters to you, this means it is something good or something bad from your perspective. When something is good or bad from your perspective, this means you are judging it as good or bad. Therefore, our positive emotions are value judgments. They are a positive form of wanting which means they are a value judgment of good and beautiful value in our lives. They are a form of liking as well which also means they are a value judgment of good and beautiful value.

Our unpleasant (negative) emotions would have to be the disreward not wanting and disliking which means they are a value judgment of bad, horrible, and disgusting value in our lives. In addition, there is also the negative form of wanting such as wanting to harm someone or wanting to give up on life which is also a value judgment of bad value. So, there you have it. This is my own personal argument that supports the idea of our basic emotions being value judgments. When our brains are rewarded with those feel-good chemicals that make us feel positive emotions, we are not just being rewarded with something pleasant. We are being rewarded with good and beautiful value in our lives.

When something is rewarding for you, this means it is something that matters to you which, in turn, means it is a value judgment for you. This all goes back to what I just said about positive emotions being value judgments of good value. With all of this being said, the good and beautiful value in our lives does not come about through a strength of character or a sense of morality and intellect as I said before. Instead, it is like we as human beings need to be rewarded through our positive emotions to make our lives something good and beautiful.

Getting a big reward would be like winning a lottery of much beauty, joy, and good value in our lives. Depressed and miserable people who believe their lives have much good value and beauty would, therefore, be no different than poor people who believe they have won the lottery when they haven't. Another thing here. Our emotions are a form of drive and motivation. An example would be sex drive. When you are driven and motivated in regards to something, that is no different than saying this thing matters to you. When it matters to you, that is a value judgment. This is yet another reason why our emotions are value judgments.
Atla wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:27 pm So people who enjoy and find value in killing others, should just keep pressing that nuclear button, it's the most valuable thing they can possibly do?

Your idea is pure genius..
There is much more to my worldview than meets the eye. That is why I have given all of these supporting arguments for it in this topic. Now, I am not some sadist or psychopath trying to justify the idea that harming and mistreating others is a good thing if you felt positive emotions from that. Sure, my worldview does say that it would be a good thing. But my positive emotions are such beauty and joy to my life that it doesn't matter what the moral implications are; I am convinced that positive emotions are still the only good things in life no matter what. Not only based upon my own personal experience, but based upon all the arguments I give to support my worldview as well. I just don't agree that there is any other personal experience out there that can replace the joy and beauty that my positive emotions bring my life. I could be wrong, but my positive emotions have always been the only source of good value in my life.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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You use a lot of words. In this medium, that usually doesn't bode well.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong or right. Your experiences and the subsequent interpretation you have committed to are perfect for you.

If the point of this thread is to fish for support of your opinion, I hope you find it.

It does seem to me that your posts here are circular or at least confusing.




...looked-up the word hedonism on the Google search thingy...Those people seem like they are having waaaaay more fun than what you describe.




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MozartLink
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by MozartLink »

Bill Wiltrack wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:56 am .





You use a lot of words. In this medium, that usually doesn't bode well.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong or right. Your experiences and the subsequent interpretation you have committed to are perfect for you.

If the point of this thread is to fish for support of your opinion, I hope you find it.

It does seem to me that your posts here are circular or at least confusing.




...looked-up the word hedonism on the Google search thingy...Those people seem like they are having waaaaay more fun than what you describe.




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I was trying to prove something to the world. I am not just sharing my own personal experience. Also, I thought my posts were quite coherent and explained my philosophy/theory quite well. I don't understand how they are confusing and I don't see how I am talking in circles either.
Dimebag
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by Dimebag »

Here is my opinion on your theory of value. Emotions are quick and dirty signals we have, which are, as you say, a pat on the back, or a slap on the wrist. Beyond that, they also engage and prepare our body for potential future events which are predicted to occur. Value is not the same thing. Value, or meaning seems to be the engagement in some activity which is good for you, but also good for other people. This is why people who engage in altruism find it provides great meaning for them. It is a burden which is taken on voluntarily, turning chaos into order. It connects you with others in a deep way.

I think this is the missing link in your value system. Try it and see if it helps. I know it is actually the opposite of hedonism, but nothing of any value was ever gained without some effort. You need to be engaging your full potential in a worthwhile pursuit. It will be difficult for you as it involves continual sacrifice, something which you may not be used to. But you are wasting your time seeking pleasure for pleasures sake, it is a path that leads to a downward spiral. There is no balance in that direction. Firstly, get your life in order. Take care of things which are nagging at you, listen to what is causing you anxiety, and identify what those things are, then confront them and break them down step by step so you can set yourself in order. Next, do you have friends or people you socialise with? Online doesn't count. You need real physical connections. If you lack social skills, maybe you need to see a psychologist or therapist. Next, find something you can pursue, you need to identify some kind of aspirational meaningful career if you haven't already. Set yourself on that path.

These are things which will change your life for the better. And if you are lucky, and you speak truly, maybe you might find someone to share your journey with.
MozartLink
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by MozartLink »

Dimebag wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:55 am Here is my opinion on your theory of value. Emotions are quick and dirty signals we have, which are, as you say, a pat on the back, or a slap on the wrist. Beyond that, they also engage and prepare our body for potential future events which are predicted to occur. Value is not the same thing. Value, or meaning seems to be the engagement in some activity which is good for you, but also good for other people. This is why people who engage in altruism find it provides great meaning for them. It is a burden which is taken on voluntarily, turning chaos into order. It connects you with others in a deep way.

I think this is the missing link in your value system. Try it and see if it helps. I know it is actually the opposite of hedonism, but nothing of any value was ever gained without some effort. You need to be engaging your full potential in a worthwhile pursuit. It will be difficult for you as it involves continual sacrifice, something which you may not be used to. But you are wasting your time seeking pleasure for pleasures sake, it is a path that leads to a downward spiral. There is no balance in that direction. Firstly, get your life in order. Take care of things which are nagging at you, listen to what is causing you anxiety, and identify what those things are, then confront them and break them down step by step so you can set yourself in order. Next, do you have friends or people you socialise with? Online doesn't count. You need real physical connections. If you lack social skills, maybe you need to see a psychologist or therapist. Next, find something you can pursue, you need to identify some kind of aspirational meaningful career if you haven't already. Set yourself on that path.

These are things which will change your life for the better. And if you are lucky, and you speak truly, maybe you might find someone to share your journey with.
I don't understand why people still reject my theory of value. I mean, I have given a formula here. In other words, I have tried to translate emotions into value by saying wanting and liking=something mattering to you=it having value from your perspective. I explained all of this in my previous post. Emotions do make things matter to us as I have explained many times and I don't think you can separate value from something mattering to you. It just makes no sense to say that something can matter to you, but has no value from your perspective.

Therefore, I think emotions will always make things of value to us since they make things matter to us. I understand why one would think that my theory is absurd and false given the things you've just said here. But it's about looking at my actual formula to see if it works or not rather than rejecting it based upon your sense of character, intellect, and morality which might be putting you into a state of denial. I also gave an example earlier with sex drive and how our emotions are a form of drive that makes things matter to us.

Now, if my formula works, then I said from there that our intellect, character, and morality alone cannot be any real source of value in our lives by using a hunger and thirst analogy. Another thing here. I do have friends and I do interact with my family. I share my music with them and everything else. So, I see no problem there. But as for things like altruism, self-sacrifice, and bearing burdens that make us feel miserable and unhappy, there is no way I am going to do any of that since my worldview already says to avoid these things since they don't make me feel good to make them something good and beautiful in my life. It would just be a drag and a chore to me.

That's the reason why I am not a parent, don't have a girlfriend, and don't have children to take care of. I am just focused on being happy and enjoying the life I want to live. From there, I hope that the eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams awaits me after I die so that I can have an even more good time for all of eternity. One last thing here. I do have a goal and dream that I am intent on pursuing which would be my composing dream. But my worldview still applies even to any given goal or dream in my life. In other words, I need to be happy and enjoy my goals and dreams to make them something beautiful and worthwhile.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: My new support for hedonism

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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I remember a member here that had a similar dream such as you. In composing music.

Is that you?


We told them to just go ahead & compose. I asked them to compose something, put it on Youtube and allow us to enjoy it.

That was over a year ago I believe.



Would you do us & yourself a favor right now & just compose? Let us hear your work.


It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be now. Let us hear what you can compose now. That is perfect.







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