Philosophy Now Forum

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:30 pmIt would seem anyone who feels the value of the entire cycle of life wouldn't put themselves in a position to kill a week old baby for convenience. Yet it happens. What does that say about the human condition?

It says that sometimes people suffer from mental illness and kill their infants because they cannot cope. Being sent to prison for years does not appear to be convenient to me.

As things stand, around 90% of abortions are performed within the first thirteen weeks during the embryonic stage.

Always interesting what you ignore.

Nick_A wrote:But why reproduce if organic life is not serving an objective purpose? ...

Why not? You stated that the objective purpose of organic objects is to transform substances but this appears to apply to inorganic objects as well so is not a defining feature whereas reproduction does appear to be a defining feature of organic entities. The geneticists would have it that the survival of DNA and the genes is why entities reproduce, me I just think it a way of increasing one's survival rate and a way to change the world.

Science functions by duality and measures and compares phenomenon in linear time. ...

What does this even mean?

Levels of reality are connected in accordance with the universal laws of the triune universe. Science by definition limited to dualism cannot measure the triune universe or the relative vertical qualities of now. ...

Give me an example of such a measurement? And whilst your at it some of these 'vertical qualities of now'?

No, if that were the case the Ways would be useless and Man would be forever riding the wheel of Samsara. ...

What "Ways"? But I see the Hindus are back in favour again.

But the human condition that results in the collective psyche of man becoming the Great Beast isn’t natural and some can realize the reality of their situation and make the necessary efforts to become human as opposed to an atom of the Great Beast. I believe that surviving the adverse effects of technology will require the awakening influence of these individualistic black sheep the world hates. If it will be sufficient is a real question.

Which adverse effects of technology?

I think this your religious indoctrination seeking a messiah to save you as you are one of the sheeple.

seeds wrote: The ultimate purpose of organic life on earth is to steadily evolve to a point where the essence of life - imbued within the fabric of matter itself - can reach the human level of consciousness.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:58 am The fact that I have a different foundation isn’t being critical of yours. It is just that it answers my questions.

That being the case, human consciousness doesn’t arise on earth as does animal consciousness.

This is getting way off the topic of “infanticide,” however, I strongly disagree with your assertion.

To slightly paraphrase something I asked of Dubious in an alternate thread...

How do you think the energy of life is corralled and isolated in order to trigger it into awakening into a singularly unique individualization of consciousness with a distinct and “personal” identity?

In other words, what is the mechanism or process that transforms the raw and nebulous essence of life into a subjectively-based focalization of self-aware “I Am-ness” that sits at the core of a closed and sovereign dimension of mind?

Of course this is all speculation, however, one possible answer (at least from the perspective of Panentheism and Idealism), is that because the universe is the literal mind of God, it is therefore completely alive and thoroughly saturated with God’s personal life essence...

...(in the exact same way that your own dreams are saturated with your own life essence).

In which case, it is the physical brain that either summons-forth the life essence that is already instantiated within the material fabric of the brain itself or, alternately, the brain is somehow capable of tapping into the greater reservoir of life, imbued within the overall fabric of the universe itself.

And from there, the unique design of the human brain allows it to perform some utterly mysterious act wherein the raw essence of life is then guided (induced/prompted) into forming a completely new mind (in the “image” of God’s mind) as is suggested in one of my oft-used illustrations...



The point is that you need to consider the idea that even God requires a “mechanistic process” to achieve the manifestation of her own offspring.

And that process begins right here on earth as is depicted in the image below...



It is a dual-stage process that will be completed in our second and final birth into full-consciousness and true reality after crossing the threshold of physical death.

And finally, just as that newly born infant - an hour or so before that photograph was taken - did not exist in a “fallen condition” relative to its mother, likewise, neither does humanity exist in a “fallen condition” relative to God, as you so often proclaim.

(Continued in next post)
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(Continued from prior post)

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:01 pm It is only your egoism that believes that the seed of the soul of man is the only seed worthy of maturity. It doesn’t matter that all other seeds in nature are not guaranteed maturity but more often than not just serve as food for creatures or food for the soil

It has absolutely nothing to do with being “worthy.”

No, it has to do with something that you yourself have brought to light in your previous postings of the words of Meister Eckhart...

Nick_A wrote:

Meister Eckhart wrote:
...Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God seeds into God.

In other words, like-beings beget like-beings, which means that the other seeds of which you speak are not the seeds of God.

And I know it sounds crazy, but only humans are the seeds of God - as in the “Ultimate Seeds” in all of reality, as is suggested in yet another of my oft-used illustrations...



And btw, even infanticide cannot rob the seeds of their birthright...

...(on the other hand, abortion can, as was pointed out in a post to Greta that she chose to ignore, here - https://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtop ... 45#p349961).
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Arising

Science functions by duality and measures and compares phenomenon in linear time. ...

What does this even mean?

Levels of reality are connected in accordance with the universal laws of the triune universe. Science by definition limited to dualism cannot measure the triune universe or the relative vertical qualities of now. ...

Give me an example of such a measurement? And whilst your at it some of these 'vertical qualities of now'?


Without opening to the premise of the Great chain of being, the triune universe and the interconnectedness of life within it including their hierarchial relationship will be meaningless for you. You want me to explain triune realities and their implications from a dualistic perspective. It cannot be done. Without opening to the big picture or the Great Chain of Being, you cannot even appreciate intellectually a triune perspective and will just continue arguing dualism.


http://faculty.grandview.edu/ssnyder/12 ... 0chain.htm

In their 1936 work, The Great Chain of Being: The History of an Idea, the scholars E. M. W. Tillyard and A. O. Lovejoy argued that ancient and medieval thought was shaped by particular ideological framework known as the "The Chain of Being." Sometimes called the Scala Natura (scale of nature), this view saw all of creation existing within a universal hierarchy that stretched from God (or immutable perfection) at its highest point to inanimate matter at its lowest. One can see something of this hierarchy in Plato's ranking of human souls in the Phaedrus, but also in Aristotle's notion that the capacity to act upon reason rather than instinct distinguishes human beings from animals.

Indeed, each link in the Great Chain of Being represented a distinct category of living creature or form of matter. Those creatures or things higher on the Chain possessed greater intellect, movement, and ability than those placed below. Thus each being in the Chain possessed all of the attributes of what was below plus an additional, superior attribute:…………………………..

Greta wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:01 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:30 pmIt would seem anyone who feels the value of the entire cycle of life wouldn't put themselves in a position to kill a week old baby for convenience. Yet it happens. What does that say about the human condition?

It says that sometimes people suffer from mental illness and kill their infants because they cannot cope. Being sent to prison for years does not appear to be convenient to me.

As things stand, around 90% of abortions are performed within the first thirteen weeks during the embryonic stage.

This is just meaningless. O course if a person is sufficiently mentally ill they can no longer feel the value of the life cycle.

The question isn't what age abortions take place but if there is any reason not to commit infanticide for convenience if there are no eternal values? If we can only live by subjective values then killing is just a matter of the mood of the day. You have your truth and I have mine so we kill babies when we feel like it

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:02 am

Greta wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:01 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:30 pmIt would seem anyone who feels the value of the entire cycle of life wouldn't put themselves in a position to kill a week old baby for convenience. Yet it happens. What does that say about the human condition?

It says that sometimes people suffer from mental illness and kill their infants because they cannot cope. Being sent to prison for years does not appear to be convenient to me.

As things stand, around 90% of abortions are performed within the first thirteen weeks during the embryonic stage.

This is just meaningless. O course if a person is sufficiently mentally ill they can no longer feel the value of the life cycle.

The question isn't what age abortions take place but if there is any reason not to commit infanticide for convenience if there are no eternal values? If we can only live by subjective values then killing is just a matter of the mood of the day. You have your truth and I have mine so we kill babies when we feel like it

Obviously the only people murdering their infants are crazy people. You don't validly judge a society by its crazies.

You don't need values not to strangle or assault babies, just to not be a wild animal. Amazing the power of accumulated culture over a few thousand years, isn't it? Entire cultures are shaped by the climate, the temperament of the people and their shared interests over many generations. There's no need for ancient texts to guide us any more, especially as their cultural specificity becomes ever more clear and their literal interpretations ever more toxic.

Meanwhile, the values that evolve in societies over time may be long term - lasting thousands of years - and do not need to be "eternal" to be useful and powerful. I guess there is a romance to thinking of things lasting "for ever and ever" or "until the end of time" but, realistically, not much does.

Greta wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:49 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:02 am

Greta wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:01 am
It says that sometimes people suffer from mental illness and kill their infants because they cannot cope. Being sent to prison for years does not appear to be convenient to me.

As things stand, around 90% of abortions are performed within the first thirteen weeks during the embryonic stage.

This is just meaningless. O course if a person is sufficiently mentally ill they can no longer feel the value of the life cycle.

The question isn't what age abortions take place but if there is any reason not to commit infanticide for convenience if there are no eternal values? If we can only live by subjective values then killing is just a matter of the mood of the day. You have your truth and I have mine so we kill babies when we feel like it

Obviously the only people murdering their infants are crazy people. You don't validly judge a society by its crazies.

You don't need values not to strangle or assault babies, just to not be a wild animal. Amazing the power of accumulated culture over a few thousand years, isn't it? Entire cultures are shaped by the climate, the temperament of the people and their shared interests over many generations. There's no need for ancient texts to guide us any more, especially as their cultural specificity becomes ever more clear and their literal interpretations ever more toxic.

Meanwhile, the values that evolve in societies over time may be long term - lasting thousands of years - and do not need to be "eternal" to be useful and powerful. I guess there is a romance to thinking of things lasting "for ever and ever" or "until the end of time" but, realistically, not much does.

Again, if there are no eternal values and we only live by subjective values, give me a subjective intellectual reason, not legal, why a mother shouldn't kill her week old completely dependent baby for convenience if she no longer wants to be bothered with it?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:05 amAgain, if there are no eternal values and we only live by subjective values, give me a subjective intellectual reason, not legal, why a mother shouldn't kill her week old completely dependent baby for convenience if she no longer wants to be bothered with it?

That's a tricky one, Nick_A. Why don't you show us how it's done, by showing us your "subjective intellectual reason" for why you think there are "eternal values".

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:43 am
The point is that you need to consider the idea that even God requires a “mechanistic process” to achieve the manifestation of her own offspring.

And that process begins right here on earth as is depicted in the image below...

Seeds, the mystics are saying the same thing, Nick is just pointing out ..that there does appear to be a prior ''fallen condition'' aka the''animal self'' that we have inherited from our ancestors the apes which still appears to be prevalent in society today.


It's not that the ''fallen condition'' is a literal condition in and of itself, of course it isn't..Reality is still just God's story of evolution ...in that evolution itself has reached a stage where the human being is fully conscious it is consciousness.. and can transcend from separate consciousness into unity consciousness..and that this transformational capacity to awaken from the ''animal condition'' into the God like status..is what is happening right now on a global scale, people are waking up rapidly like no other time in history...the paradigm shift means that if one man can awaken ..so too can the whole world awaken.

I think that's what Nick is referring to when he talks about the ''fallen condition''....so really, it has to be mentioned,and Nick just happens to mention it.. and I agree with him..

And I also know what you are talking about when you refer to the ''mechanistic process'' that was needed so that God become God in the flesh...so I see it what you and Nick are saying from both sides, from your side and from Nicks side ...neither of you are wrong here...I'm sure Nick will correct me if I'm wrong in what I've just said.

And yes the second birth is the final birth, it's the transformation, the awakening from flesh back to spirit. Our divine Mother gave birth twice..

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. You have to be born again to know your true eternal self.

seeds wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:43 amIt is a dual-stage process that will be completed in our second and final birth into full-consciousness and true reality after crossing the threshold of physical death.

And finally, just as that newly born infant - an hour or so before that photograph was taken - did not exist in a “fallen condition” relative to its mother, likewise, neither does humanity exist in a “fallen condition” relative to God, as you so often proclaim.


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Yes, this is true, but man doesn't know this until he awakens ....prior to awakening, man still thinks he's an ape, with all the animal characteristics that go with that.

Also, Nick talks about the psychological disorder that is unique to humans because of their sense of separation.

Even though, that separation was meant to be there in order that the consciousness could awaken from it's separate identity into unity...it was a necessity so to speak.

And the fact that the human condition that is the world of separate things meant conflict self-centred -ness...division, wars and disorder that are just not there in the natural world because these conditions are human constructs, and the fact that they are the ones who invented these un-natural constructs, means they can undo them, they can change their fear based ..''them against us'' ... perceptions and change them to create the reality they want for the better, minus the psychological suffering separation brings, they can think in terms of unity and wholeness instead.

.

The thing is seeds, we've all got our own unique ways of talking about awakening...none of us are wrong, just as none of us are separated from God in the first place.

.

uwot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:00 amThat's a tricky one, Nick_A. Why don't you show us how it's done, by showing us your "subjective intellectual reason" for why you think there are "eternal values".

Because there is only eternity. There is only the eternal.

There is only the absolute. There is only Infinity.

Any value is always put there by the above.

If you don't have any value for living...you'll have a shitty life...and nothing will change.

If you do have value for life, you'll have a lovely life....and nothing will change.

Intention is the rider of the will...God's will. Natures will, natures will has no mind or intention to harm itself. It's just what it is.

To harm by intention is not a natural law...and will cause misery and suffering in a world that is generally free of such an idea.

Pain is inevitable, but suffering is a man-made artificial construct, that can be transcended...eradicated completely.

But you have to be born again..in other words you have to die while you are alive. No pain, no gain.

''He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

There is no room in here for two. That's why you were expelled from the comfort of the womb where you existed in pure innocence... into the world of the born, and separation, but the good news is....you can go back in ...at any time you want...no one is excluded.

But you can't go back in through the mother, you have to go back in through the man jesus, the father.

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:27 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:00 amThat's a tricky one, Nick_A. Why don't you show us how it's done, by showing us your "subjective intellectual reason" for why you think there are "eternal values".

Because there is only eternity. There is only the eternal.

OK then: what is your "subjective intellectual reason" for believing that?

uwot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:50 pm OK then: what is your "subjective intellectual reason" for believing that?

It's not a belief ..belief is of a doubting mind...it's more of a direct experiential knowing.

I cannot refute or deny I exist...I know I AM...but I never know I do not exist.

One has to exist to know anything, none-existence is impossible...for that would require a knower to know it.

Life is wide awake..death is asleep... one awakens from sleep, to sleep again, to awaken...it's an eternal return to itself.

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:32 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:44 am Greta wrote

Trouble is, Nick, there's fire outside the cave so it would seem advantageous to stay safely inside the cave. The alternative is to walk into the flames and be turned into a tasty side of longpig, ready to be et by the cave dwellers

Yes this is how most think which is why they ridicule those seeking freedom from psychological slavery offered by cave life. What could be more frightening then that which destroys the imagination offering the security of slavery?

Good reply.

Your posts make perfect sense to this one here.
Not a bit of sense at all, instead he contradicts himself regularly, I've pointed it out many times. You two are seemingly psychos. You know, mentally touched, not in a good way.

The dumb ass speaks of his fear of being a slave, yet he's obviously a slave to a primitive mind; his advocating Infanticide surely proves my point! Though you two idiots aren't capable of understanding. Obviously the only thing that shall quell your misgivings are some serious anti-delusional pharmaceuticals.


Enjoy your freedom and bliss, no one can ever take that away from you..it's all yours.
Yes they can, when they place him in one of those white jackets with the long sleeves that tie in the back. And then of course there's the anti-delusional cocktail that his, so called, thinking so obviously requires.


They can take everything from you but your own mind.
Not true, they have drugs that say otherwise.


Even name calling is not your mind. I know you mind your own, but I like pointing out the obviousness in every moment.

Be careful what you call yourself it might just stick.

Unless you've got a liquid mind, in which case every sticky thing will be separated from it...water takes no prisoners
Your brain is sticky alright, as it's stuck in delusional mode, due to some traumatic incident no doubt.
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It's a shame really, because I'm sure if you and nick were on some anti-psychotics, and had some rational reprogramming you might be capable of having a decent life without all those strange voices in your heads.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:45 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:52 am
That you try and frame nonsensical ideas as intellectually sound doesn't legitimize them as being so.

All ideas can be very confusing until that is, you realise where ideas are actually coming from, only then will sense become clear, all confusion is lifted in that moment of realisation.

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Sorry but you're a fool, they'll never be a day that either you or nick can formulate any sort of "valid rational argument," that I won't understand completely. Don't let my "ragtime cowboy" responses fool you. The words of you two are completely transparent. They oft come from fanciful imagination, the place where those that can't cope with reality oft retreat, because it's warm and fuzzy inside the delusional mind. I mean crap, anything can be true in there, right?