Prostitution and Eternal Values

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Atla
Posts: 6607
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Atla »

Belinda wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:31 am Atla wrote:
Nondualism by itself isn't really a philosophy, it's more like a fact. Roses are red. The sky is blue. The separate "I" is illusory.
Nondualism ( the vedanta philosophy meaning of the term) may be a fact whatever you mean by "fact". The dualistic aspect is fact too. Dualism and nondualism are mutually compatible.
Don't make me laugh. The dualistic "aspect" isn't a fact, it's an everyday convention.

Dualism and nondualism aren't on the same level so they are not mutually compatible. Instead, the everyday, made up dual is contained within the nondual.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5688
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Belinda wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:16 pm SpheresofBalance wrote:
Well by their very definitions, time, though I would agree it's not necessarily a thing, seems immediately knowable, even if it's just change. It's more apparent that change exists, that it's the way of the universe!
The way I see it is that change, transience, finality of differentiated entities, is the aspect of being which we know and inhabit.
I agree. As I'm sure you'd agree that we can only speak of those things that we know, that we can never speak of those things we don't know. That we can form suppositions, based upon what we know, which has no necessary bearing on that which we have yet to know, if ever we could possibly know.


And as you say time is change and also rate of change when we care to measure it. I entirely agree that It's more apparent that change exists, that it's the way of the universe!
Once there was a star, supernova, now it's just nebula. Once there was a planet, yet after an asteroid the size of the US travelling thousands of miles per hour hits it square on, it's just lifeless fragments of matter, an ex-planet. Which obviously kills the notion that, that star and planet, yes even you and I, were eternal. For those two celestial objects there was no eternity. So all the human concepts, including time and eternal are forever lost, never eternal. They end, period!
Indeed they all end as far as us knowing them goes. However us knowing them does not necessarily imply that they have to be known.
I agree, humankind need not know of any particular thing for it to be the actual case.

They may reduce to
Ahh reduction... So then can one truthfully say that, that thing from which something was reduced, is eternal? In chemistry one can either add or remove something and a compound changes, so then is the new compound the same? In such a case could it be truthfully said that any particular instance of that compound was eternal. Maybe only that the composition of that compound is eternal. But then only if its constituents are eternal. Is it possible, in this universe, for all elements to be joined, to create yet the heaviest of all elements, such that all it's constituents are consumed in it's creation? Is helium hydrogen? Once particular hydrogen atoms are fused to create helium, can it be said that those particular atoms of hydrogen are now in fact eternally hydrogen? Maybe eternal as helium, maybe not. Change may be eternal, but if Belinda and the SOB are no longer, can it be said that they are eternal, maybe their constituents, but then again maybe not. To me, total heat death, entropy, can only be the case when no two bits of matter can collide, as with the collision of matter there can be friction, thus heat, and the potential for further change. With no more heat potential, can it be said that all which came before it, was eternal? Maybe their constituents, maybe not. Time my tell, given enough of it, or maybe change may tell, given enough of it. Can change ever stop? I can't say for sure, can you? Can that with the concept eternal stands for, be eternal, can any human know with certainty? infinity is a very long time indeed. If only we could be around long enough to see that which shall be the case...

eternal [ih-tur-nl]
4. Metaphysics. existing outside all relations of time;
not subject to change. --dictionary.com--

1. things in themselves,
I would argue that any particular particle, or complete composite made of particles, seemingly independent in space, within the universe, could be seen as things in themselves. In the largest arena, can't the universe itself, be seen as a thing in itself, of which, we are a constituent. I disagree with Kant's idea of things in themselves. They exist without observation, but they are not isolated from observation. Schroedinger's cat is one of those, so called, thought experiments, that I find ridiculous. The question of 'an unobserved tree creating sound as it falls' is another such ridiculous, example. Nothing in the universe is changed simply with an animals observation, only in it's own mind, can it truly be said, only about it's mind, not that which was observed.

or 2. an amorphous super entity,
OK... though I see 'entity' used very loosely indeed, and only in the context of universe. ;-)

or 3. all the percepts, feelings, ideas , artefacts, bits and pieces of natural objects, and concepts undifferentiated each from the others.
I see that your list contains some apples, and oranges, thus not very realistic. There are concrete universal things amongst some abstract human only things, not to be mixed in the context of eternity.

I see no other choices and
I happen to like 3. the most,
I'm sure you would, as it's based within the fear of death, that which gave rise to all human gods.

and I like to call it "eternity".
Of course I'll defend your right to call it cheesecake if you'd like, but I see no valid premises that would give rise to such a conclusion, thus no sound logic that could be considered scientific. Of course many people bend words to suit their particular needs. I do it as well. But I try and stay as literal as possible, though I often speak with metaphor and analogy. ;-)

[/quote]
Belinda, the only thing I see as eternal, is change. Thus no particular combination of matter is eternal. Of course if entropy is true, then not even that, may be eternal.

P.S. Seriously, now I can't seem to get coffee and cheesecake out of my mind... A great taste combination, at least to my buds.
;-)
Belinda
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Belinda »

Atla wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:41 am
Belinda wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:31 am Atla wrote:
Nondualism by itself isn't really a philosophy, it's more like a fact. Roses are red. The sky is blue. The separate "I" is illusory.
Nondualism ( the vedanta philosophy meaning of the term) may be a fact whatever you mean by "fact". The dualistic aspect is fact too. Dualism and nondualism are mutually compatible.
Don't make me laugh. The dualistic "aspect" isn't a fact, it's an everyday convention.

Dualism and nondualism aren't on the same level so they are not mutually compatible. Instead, the everyday, made up dual is contained within the nondual.
You explained your point of view clearly and that is good.
Belinda
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Belinda »

Spheres of Balance wrote:
the only thing I see as eternal, is change. Thus no particular combination of matter is eternal. Of course if entropy is true, then not even that, may be eternal.
I don't see change as eternal because I see change as a name for that aspect of nature which happens to be the aspect of nature which we can experience. Because it's the only aspect of nature which we can experience does not imply that it's the only aspect of nature. We can have vague understanding of another state of nature that we call eternity i.e. as your dictionary definition says is the aspect from timelessness . And what's time? Time is measured change.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5688
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Belinda wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:18 pm Spheres of Balance wrote:
the only thing I see as eternal, is change. Thus no particular combination of matter is eternal. Of course if entropy is true, then not even that, may be eternal.
I don't see change as eternal because I see change as a name for that aspect of nature which happens to be the aspect of nature which we can experience. Because it's the only aspect of nature which we can experience does not imply that it's the only aspect of nature. We can have vague understanding of another state of nature that we call eternity i.e. as your dictionary definition says is the aspect from timelessness . And what's time? Time is measured change.
I'm saying that the man made concept of eternity (1325-75; Middle English eternite < Latin aeternitās. See eterne, -ity) is a misconception, locked within the mysticism of the period that coined it. That it has no place in modern scientific thinking. Today it's just the wishful thinking of those religious peoples that continue to hold onto the false promise that ones life shall continue if they believe in and celebrate their god. That logically the only thing that 'seems' eternal are the physics of our universe, which includes, seemingly, never ending change.

But as you've previously mentioned, I do understand your desire to believe in it.


Edit: is to are
Last edited by SpheresOfBalance on Fri May 18, 2018 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dubious
Posts: 3987
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 7:40 am

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Dubious »

Eternity is only good for as long as it lasts and that depends on the lifespan of the person who believes it. During that limited period its conception would have served its purpose for those who derive comfort in that belief. For me that idea resolves completely into fear and trembling; the absolute opposite of submission to zero time and space. Eternity! the worst torture time can inflict!
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Dontaskme »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:25 am I'm saying that the man made concept of eternity (1325-75; Middle English eternite < Latin aeternitās. See eterne, -ity) is a misconception, locked within the mysticism of the period that coined it. That it has no place in modern scientific thinking. Today it's just the wishful thinking of those religious peoples that continue to hold onto the false promise that ones life shall continue if they believe in and celebrate their god. That logically the only thing that 'seems' eternal is the physics of our universe, which includes, seemingly, never ending change.

That which seemingly appears to change never changes.

Look at space, it doesn't change. There is nothing beyond space, or behind it, there's only what's seemingly in it inseparable from it. There is nothing behind or in front of an image seen. Space is non-local and cannot be approached or stepped out of...there is no external or internal to space..it's absolutely everything and nothing.


Scientific thinking has no place here, it is the place ..the placeless place.

The only life that continues is this ever changeless changing.

The rest of your post is fictional story of no substance or reality whatsoever, no person or god was ever born, except as fictional concept. The idea there is scientific thinking is wishful thinking of those mystical ideas that coined themselves out of thin air, namely, this placeless space.

.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Nick_A »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:35 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:25 am I'm saying that the man made concept of eternity (1325-75; Middle English eternite < Latin aeternitās. See eterne, -ity) is a misconception, locked within the mysticism of the period that coined it. That it has no place in modern scientific thinking. Today it's just the wishful thinking of those religious peoples that continue to hold onto the false promise that ones life shall continue if they believe in and celebrate their god. That logically the only thing that 'seems' eternal is the physics of our universe, which includes, seemingly, never ending change.

That which seemingly appears to change never changes.

Look at space, it doesn't change. There is nothing beyond space, or behind it, there's only what's seemingly in it inseparable from it. There is nothing behind or in front of an image seen. Space is non-local and cannot be approached or stepped out of...there is no external or internal to space..it's absolutely everything and nothing.


Scientific thinking has no place here, it is the place ..the placeless place.

The only life that continues is this ever changeless changing.

The rest of your post is fictional story of no substance or reality whatsoever, no person or god was ever born, except as fictional concept. The idea there is scientific thinking is wishful thinking of those mystical ideas that coined themselves out of thin air, namely, this placeless space.

.
There is a danger in what you write DaM. If what you say is true it means we lack any potential for responsibility. There is nothing to be responsible to since we are just a whim. The greatest atrocities can be blamed on and justified as a whim. Does that really seem reasonable to you?
Belinda
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Belinda »

Spheresof Balance wrote:
But as you've previously mentioned, I do understand your desire to believe in it.
But eternal being doesn't imply everlasting life, or life after death. Everlasting and after are terms that refer to time.
And then Dubious wrote:
Eternity is only good for as long as it lasts and that depends on the lifespan of the person who believes it. During that limited period its conception would have served its purpose for those who derive comfort in that belief. For me that idea resolves completely into fear and trembling; the absolute opposite of submission to zero time and space. Eternity! the worst torture time can inflict!
But the same answer applies as I gave SofB. I would not like everlasting life or immortality of deathlessness. Eternity blends all the separate times and all the separate identities. Eternity includes no individual consciousnesses.Eternity cannot hold individual consciousnesses because individual consciousnesses depend upon sequential experiences.

Nick wrote to Dontaskme:
There is a danger in what you write DaM. If what you say is true it means we lack any potential for responsibility. There is nothing to be responsible to since we are just a whim. The greatest atrocities can be blamed on and justified as a whim. Does that really seem reasonable to you?
I agree with Nick in this matter. Eternity is true and the relative aspect of nature is also true.We are thrust at birth into the relative aspect of nature i.e. duality and we must deal with social rights and wrongs and as people empowered by free societies and modern affluence we have all the more duty to assume personal responsibility for what we think say, and do.

I am pretty sure that DAM does recognise and try to fulfil her responsibilities not only to persuade us that eternity is true, but also to vote intelligently, to feed her dog or cat, to care for her loved ones, and to take care of her own wellbeing. Do you remember that holy man in the film 'Black Narcissus'? He observed no duties to the relative world and was fed by religious devotees. The holy man was a social token of respect for nonduality. And the lay people who fed him, actually after a laborious climb up the mountain, were observing nonduality without the pressure to devote their entire time and energy to nonduality.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:22 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:35 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:25 am I'm saying that the man made concept of eternity (1325-75; Middle English eternite < Latin aeternitās. See eterne, -ity) is a misconception, locked within the mysticism of the period that coined it. That it has no place in modern scientific thinking. Today it's just the wishful thinking of those religious peoples that continue to hold onto the false promise that ones life shall continue if they believe in and celebrate their god. That logically the only thing that 'seems' eternal is the physics of our universe, which includes, seemingly, never ending change.

That which seemingly appears to change never changes.

Look at space, it doesn't change. There is nothing beyond space, or behind it, there's only what's seemingly in it inseparable from it. There is nothing behind or in front of an image seen. Space is non-local and cannot be approached or stepped out of...there is no external or internal to space..it's absolutely everything and nothing.


Scientific thinking has no place here, it is the place ..the placeless place.

The only life that continues is this ever changeless changing.

The rest of your post is fictional story of no substance or reality whatsoever, no person or god was ever born, except as fictional concept. The idea there is scientific thinking is wishful thinking of those mystical ideas that coined themselves out of thin air, namely, this placeless space.

.
There is a danger in what you write DaM. If what you say is true it means we lack any potential for responsibility. There is nothing to be responsible to since we are just a whim. The greatest atrocities can be blamed on and justified as a whim. Does that really seem reasonable to you?
Everything is possible in the conceptual story of otherness...including responsibility..
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Nick_A »

DaM
Everything is possible in the conceptual story of otherness...including responsibility..
You lost me here. Does Man IYO have any potential objective responsibility in the universe or is responsibility a meaningless concept since we are just a whim?
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:34 am DaM
Everything is possible in the conceptual story of otherness...including responsibility..
You lost me here. Does Man IYO have any potential objective responsibility in the universe or is responsibility a meaningless concept since we are just a whim?
Yes of course humans are still responsible. Responsibility and Discernment is key and paramount. Intuition and Conscience is what humans are drawing upon in every waking moment..it's a constant and immutable guide, companion. It's mans higher self...the immortal SELF

Nick this image is how I see God.

Image

Every image seen is the reflected face of God.



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The immaculate conception IS THE EVER UNFOLDING STORY OF I AM .....
"Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!

The source of every I ..is the immortal formless ONE in form...Every thing seen and known is the conception of I ..Concepts reveal and inform the dual nature of ''spirit mind'' and ''body'' inseparably Nondual, but appearing as two..the seer and the seen, the knower and the known. (Duality)

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Human Wo/man is the conceptual body of the immortal ONE appearing to itself as the many...duality ..the body being the instrument for experience as and through the bodies capacity to sense.

The source of all that is...Animating itself as a temporal character body aka a human as imaged, that being the living testimony of source. That which is looking at it's image is not found in the image, IT IS THE IMAGE.


Humans forget who they are ..as they identify with the fictional conceptual story, instead of the source of the story which is infinite and unlimited.

That is until they awaken from the dream of separation, from duality into Nonduality which is what I've done and you've done.

So of course, Humans have a responsibility, they are hand maidens of God, but it is God alone who has ultimate power and control over what IS...for what IS- IS only ever God ultimately.

The conceptual story of otherness is when man identifies himself as the body, instead of the one animating the body.


.
Nick_A
Posts: 6208
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Nick_A »

Your beliefs seem centered around the seer and the seen as ONE while my beliefs are centered around a universe structured on levels of reality within an ineffable Source Plotinus called ONE which is beyond the limits of time and space. Level of reality also correspond with dimensions so the sixth dimension as I understand it is similar to what modern scientific theory call multiverse. Man on earth is just a tiny speck within the sixth dimension so assuming a direct relationship between the seer and seen doesn’t seem reasonable. This is not to say that the conscious part of the human essence cannot be seen by higher consciousness within creation. Man on earth serves lower purposes within creation. From this perspective Man cannot be part of the seer or Source. Man can serve both a mechanical animal and conscious necessity. We are not God but rather workers within creation. Eternal values are just the norm for higher consciousness we have the potential for. We have different theoretical foundations

But that doesn’t mean we cannot discuss differences. As you know our beliefs generate hostile responses. Why is this? It is said that people should never discuss politics and religion at a party since it will end up in a fight. It seems to me that people conversing about the meaning and purpose of human existence should be welcomed. Yet it often provokes hostility. I know you will catch hell for your beliefs and you know the reaction I get. What IYO about the God concept attracts so much hostility both by those condemning it and those defending their own perspective? We are discussing without hostility. It almost seems odd.

I remember some years back when I learned that a painting by one of my ancestors was being featured at a museum exhibition. I naturally visited the museum. I was digesting the painting with intense interest unaware that two Sufis noticed my interest. We began to talk and they asked if I knew any of the meanings within the light as depicted. I said yes to an extent. I said since I am related to the artist I feel something personal in it. They asked if I’d like to join them for lunch in the cafeteria. I said of course and we had a great lunch with a discussion I learned so much from. Here I am, an esoteric Christian talking with two Sufis about the meaning of light while in another part of the world religious wars are taking place. All this is considered normal. What is it about the God concept and what it connects that opens some to pursue objective human meaning and purpose and others to kill or mock all those who oppose their denial or beliefs?

From Plato's Cave allegory:
[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
There is something about the awareness of our nothingness in comparison to the potential for human "being" that provokes defensive hostility. It is easy to underestimate in these times filled with all the cutsey pooh, we are all ONE talk. The most offensive machine is the alarm clock. All sorts of awakening influences will provoke the desire to kill just like in the morning we want to destroy the clock doing its lawful duty.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:20 pmWhat IYO about the God concept attracts so much hostility both by those condemning it and those defending their own perspective? We are discussing without hostility. It almost seems odd.What is it about the God concept and what it connects that opens some to pursue objective human meaning and purpose and others to kill or mock all those who oppose their denial or beliefs?
I suppose people have weird concepts about what god actually is..as if god was some thing existing separate from our self. But to me, there is nothing outside of being..except more of the same one being entangled together like a massive big pile of spaghetti.

Those who are now living in the 5th dimension have returned from 3D frequency to the sublime place of resting light ..the god self itself.

We are each on our own level of conscious evolution ...so there is always going to be conflicting scenarios between the levels of consciousness that people are currently vibrating at....all we can do is to know why they react the way they do because we too were once in their place....our own higher frequency will overshadow their negative vibe completely as we already know too well how greater is the light over the shadows it casts.

I like these quotes by Itzhak Bentov who in 1979 aged 55 died the most horrific death while on board an American DC 10 plane that crashed due to an engine failure that sent the plane into a tail spin soon after take off. It was too late to abort the take off, so all the plane could do was crash into the earth below killing nearly 300 people in a huge fireball...I doubt anyone would have suffered, their deaths would have been fairly instantaneous.
The Soul is repository of information that we gather during a lifetime.

If we were to ask the brain how it would like to be treated, whether shaken at a random, irregular rate, or in a rhythmic, harmonious fashion, we can be sure that the brain, or for that matter the whole body, would prefer the latter.
There's just so much to explain about the losing and finding of our original state...and so many ways to explain it as we all experience god in our own unique ways.

Hostility resides in the 3rd dimension of duality as the separation experience. It's like being in a constant state of tension where to lose the sense of separation has a hostile feeling to it, a feeling of losing ones life instead of feeling a gain of one's whole immortal self..or something like that...IDk, why others feel the way they feel really, or why they choose to kill and be at war with their fellow species, it never made sense to me... duality feels as though you are in constant competition to be something which conflicts with your actual natural state of no thing everything beingness still resting light. It's as if the ocean wants to create waves in order to experience itself in action motion. And to do that is to separate which is painful and holds the frequency vibe of insecurity always having to prove to itself of it's worth and value...forgetting how already perfect and valuable it is without even having to prove it.

Life is weird, when you win you lose, when you lose you win. We really become our thoughts, what we believe will be, what we don't believe will also be..we create our own reality..while pure being just looks on in detachment, resting light, pure and always at peace.

.
Yrreg
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Yrreg »

They exist in the realm of eternal values!

But they also go into brawls like with Buddhist monks fighting over who have control of the money in their monastery.

So, they are no different from you and me, and you just say something painful to their eternal values realm, like, "Man, your fly is not zippered up," and see their reaction of dismay and embarrassment.
Post Reply