Prostitution and Eternal Values

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Nick_A
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Nick_A »

Yrreg wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:14 pm Dear Belinda and all posters advocating eternal values:

Your advocacy against prostitution is because it is contrary to an eternal value, scil. prostitution is evil, period.

Now, let us all think about whether there is an eternal value which is evil, namely, answer this question:

Does evil exist?

Evil cannot be an eternal value. Evil is a temporary condition. It is what prevents recognition of eternal values.

Objective evil for man is the tendency for imagination to take the place of conscious attention. When we intentionally allow imagination and the attraction to imaginary goals it is called objective prostitution. Faust selling his soul to the devil is an act of objective prostitution

All the great traditions in one way or another refer to the necessity of awakening. Imagination is what prevents it.

Simone Weil wrote:
Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real i nterests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it.

Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life.

Idolatry comes from the fact that, while thirsting for absolute good, we do not possess the power of supernatural attention and we have not the patience to allow it to develop (Simone Weil, Gravity and Grace 53).
As usual Simone doesn’t cutsey pooh round the question but lays it on the line. Slavery to imagination is a result of the human condition. It is the objective evil which for Man denies normal conscious human recognition of eternal values and conscious evolution
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Dontaskme
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:36 pm
Yrreg wrote: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:14 pm Dear Belinda and all posters advocating eternal values:

Your advocacy against prostitution is because it is contrary to an eternal value, scil. prostitution is evil, period.

Now, let us all think about whether there is an eternal value which is evil, namely, answer this question:

Does evil exist?

Evil cannot be an eternal value. Evil is a temporary condition. It is what prevents recognition of eternal values.

Objective evil for man is the tendency for imagination to take the place of conscious attention. When we intentionally allow imagination and the attraction to imaginary goals it is called objective prostitution. Faust selling his soul to the devil is an act of objective prostitution

All the great traditions in one way or another refer to the necessity of awakening. Imagination is what prevents it.

Simone Weil wrote:
Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real i nterests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it.

Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life.

Idolatry comes from the fact that, while thirsting for absolute good, we do not possess the power of supernatural attention and we have not the patience to allow it to develop (Simone Weil, Gravity and Grace 53).
As usual Simone doesn’t cutsey pooh round the question but lays it on the line. Slavery to imagination is a result of the human condition. It is the objective evil which for Man denies normal conscious human recognition of eternal values and conscious evolution
Very well said. Thank you for bringing this real intelligence back to our conscious attention.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Conde Lucanor wrote: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:Nothingness is an absence, an not a phenomena in and of itself, hence "untruth" is equivalent to a deficiency in truth.
I perceive a tree outside my house. It involves my presence at the same time and place where the tree is. I may become absent and never perceive the tree again, but that will have no effect on the tree itself. So my perceptions will not become untrue, I just will not be having more perceptions. And of course, other people will.

You never see the movement or growth of the tree in its entirety hence your observation of the tree will always contain an element of "untruth" to it considering you may view its nature approximately (through time) or as a constant approximate form (through abstract thought).
Eodnhoj7 wrote: I observe a car. I use all my senses to perceive it, and in doing so cause a change within the car (moving the car or parts of it).
Perceiving an object will not cause anything to the object.

Does it? Would the car have been formed unless someone looked at it? Would it have been formed if noone was to look at it? It's potential purpose may have only been to be looked at, "bragged about", yet that "potential" nature what the boundary which allowed the "actual" to occur.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: The car as phenomena, in turn reflects back to me. My senses change, I move around, my thoughts and emotions form memories which will affect me later down the timeline. In these respects, the car causes changes within qualitative dimensions of my being.
Not the car in itself, but my perception of the car. Of course the car can come straight at me and hit me, which certainly can directly affect my state of being.
But the car, as strictly the application of dimensions through the manipulation of materials that in themselves are composed of "temporality" (as each element exist through movement as a temporal reality) is strictly the manifestation of perception. Perception being the manifestation of dimensions, through the process of measurement, in inseperable from an act of creation or maintenance.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Dontaskme »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:58 pm
Conde Lucanor wrote: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:Nothingness is an absence, an not a phenomena in and of itself, hence "untruth" is equivalent to a deficiency in truth.
I perceive a tree outside my house. It involves my presence at the same time and place where the tree is. I may become absent and never perceive the tree again, but that will have no effect on the tree itself. So my perceptions will not become untrue, I just will not be having more perceptions. And of course, other people will.

You never see the movement or growth of the tree in its entirety hence your observation of the tree will always contain an element of "untruth" to it considering you may view its nature approximately (through time) or as a constant approximate form (through abstract thought).
Eodnhoj7 wrote: I observe a car. I use all my senses to perceive it, and in doing so cause a change within the car (moving the car or parts of it).
Perceiving an object will not cause anything to the object.

Does it? Would the car have been formed unless someone looked at it? Would it have been formed if noone was to look at it? It's potential purpose may have only been to be looked at, "bragged about", yet that "potential" nature what the boundary which allowed the "actual" to occur.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: The car as phenomena, in turn reflects back to me. My senses change, I move around, my thoughts and emotions form memories which will affect me later down the timeline. In these respects, the car causes changes within qualitative dimensions of my being.
Not the car in itself, but my perception of the car. Of course the car can come straight at me and hit me, which certainly can directly affect my state of being.
But the car, as strictly the application of dimensions through the manipulation of materials that in themselves are composed of "temporality" (as each element exist through movement as a temporal reality) is strictly the manifestation of perception. Perception being the manifestation of dimensions, through the process of measurement, in inseperable from an act of creation or maintenance.
This reminds me of the following zen story.

Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind. "It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one. "No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second. A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them. "Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said, "It is MIND that moves."

http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/movingmind.html
Nick_A
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Nick_A »

DaM
This reminds me of the following zen story.

Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind. "It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one. "No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second. A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them. "Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said, "It is MIND that moves."
Actually after all is said and done, it is the bowels that move.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Dontaskme »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:17 pm DaM
This reminds me of the following zen story.

Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind. "It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one. "No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second. A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them. "Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said, "It is MIND that moves."
Actually after all is said and done, it is the bowels that move.
The mouth overflows what the heart is full of.
Yrreg
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Yrreg »

Dear colleagues here, this is a philosophy forum, so we want to be really into philosophy.

Now, at no time in the history of mankind, does man know so much of the physical reality, which is in the realm of science.

Scientists judge everything and they claim to be off-limits to any other humans judging them.

Is there any colleague here who has say learning in science as qualifies him to be conversant in science, so as to tell us about the existence of eternal values, from his perch as a scientist?

I am an armchair philosopher, and science is not my cup of tea, though I submit that I do read and think about science - from the standpoint of philosophy.

From my stock impression about science I would say that scientists don't concern themselves with eternal values.

Paging a scientist colleague here, anyone at all, what do you say, is there such a thing as an eternal value?
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Greta
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Greta »

Not a scientist, just interested in science. About the only thing we know of that appears to be eternal is dark energy. So the one eternal value would be to simply spread out and explore as far as you can.

In our universe, however, this eternal value is tempered by gravity and the strong nuclear force, but these forces - which are basically the tendency to bring things together and consolidate them rather than spread out and dissipate them - are not eternal, but close enough to be so by our temporal standards.
Atla
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Atla »

It's not about being acceptable or not acceptable, it's a fact that all values are created by humans, societies, religions, dictatorships, people in power etc. The universe doesn't care, so making up values and trying to agree on them was overall still the best attempt to avoid total chaos.
So it basically depends on the society's values whether or not prostitution is prostitution. Nowadays values are being destroyed at an astonishing rate, so prostitution is basically no longer prostitution.
uwot
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

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Yrreg wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:00 amScientists judge everything and they claim to be off-limits to any other humans judging them.
If they do that, it is because other people's opinions about how the world ought to behave is not really what they are interested in. Their job is to investigate how the world actually does behave.
Yrreg wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:00 amIs there any colleague here who has say learning in science as qualifies him to be conversant in science, so as to tell us about the existence of eternal values, from his perch as a scientist?
MSc in History and Philosophy of Science; I'll let you judge whether that qualifies me to talk about science.
Yrreg wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:00 amI am an armchair philosopher, and science is not my cup of tea, though I submit that I do read and think about science - from the standpoint of philosophy.

From my stock impression about science I would say that scientists don't concern themselves with eternal values.
Well, the difference between you and a scientist then, is that a scientist will generally not make such an assertion without having some data to back it up. If a scientist has an impression, he or she will do some research to find out whether it is the case.
Yrreg wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:00 amPaging a scientist colleague here, anyone at all, what do you say, is there such a thing as an eternal value?
What do you mean by an eternal value? There's stuff like 2+2=4. The ratio of the circumference to the diameter is pi. Justice is always a good thing (from another thread), but anything that is 'eternal' is so by its definition. 2 and 2 is eternally 4, for example, because they are the same thing.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

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Atla wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:55 am It's not about being acceptable or not acceptable, it's a fact that all values are created by humans, societies, religions, dictatorships, people in power etc. The universe doesn't care, so making up values and trying to agree on them was overall still the best attempt to avoid total chaos.
So it basically depends on the society's values whether or not prostitution is prostitution. Nowadays values are being destroyed at an astonishing rate, so prostitution is basically no longer prostitution.
You say the universe doesn't care...but the human does apparently care about life...that caring has to come from somewhere, it has to exist...the human did not make itself, the human is the made....there is nothing separate from the whole...caring is the universe caring for itself...humans are not in the universe, humans are the universe, it's in us....we are not in it.

If we didn't care..we might just give birth to a child and then think oh sod it I can't be bothered with this screaming brat and leave it outside in a cardboard box for someone else to look after it...but even that is a from of caring, there is a hoping someone else will take it in ....it's rare that babies are flushed down the toilet when not wanted...so this is not what generally happens...because we care about life...life cares about itself, cats care for their kittens, dogs care for their puppies...etc etc...

I don't get where you think the universe doesn't care?....it can't care in the sense that it looks on in utter detachment prior to embodiment...embodiment is when you the universe are experiencing itself as and through a mind/body mechanism ..caring has to come into play....else life would be total chaos...

I care about telling the truth to my offspring...sometimes they prefer the lie, like when I tell them I am not in relationship with them, I say that we are equal to each other as one being...now if they truly cared about me, truly loved me, then nothing I say to them would turn them away...

Sometimes truth does not want to be heard, but at the same time, truth cannot be turned away from...we always return to truth in the end because it's our natural resting place of peace harmony and contentment.

__________

When you say value is a human construct...is this because you believe a human can die, so any value dies along side the one that invented it?

I would like to ask you 2 questions if I may...you do not have to answer it.

Do you like being alive and experiencing life at multiple levels of human diversity and creativity... or do you dislike life and you can't wait to die and your final wish is to never ever be born ever again?

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Atla
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

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Dontaskme wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:34 ambut the human does apparently care about life...but the human does apparently care about life...
Most people care about life, others don't, of course it's not universal.
that caring has to come from somewhere, it has to exist...
Nope, caring is just something that most people are capable of, it's part of their brain/mind. Ever met people with a complete lack of empathy?
the human did not make itself, the human is the made....
Neither of these is true, existence is spontaneous.
there is nothing separate from the whole...
Yes, but that doesn't mean that there aren't differences.
caring is the universe caring for itself...
The universe on the whole, doesn't care for itself. On the whole it doesn't do anything.
humans are not in the universe, humans are the universe, it's in us....we are not in it.
A human is a part of the universe, continuous with it. We are in it, but fundamentally speaking, also one and the same with it.
The universe is not in you; a representation of the universe is in your head. It's a model of your surroundings.
If we didn't care..we might just give birth to a child and then think oh sod it I can't be bothered with this screaming brat and leave it outside in a cardboard box for someone else to look after it...
And some people do just that. In order to stop such people, we need clarity, sanity in the world first, and you are actively working against clarity.
so this is not what generally happens...because we care about life...life cares about itself, cats care for their kittens, dogs care for their puppies...etc etc...
Yes most people and many advanced animals do care. (Not sure about cats, I love cats, and I have a cat, and my cat adores me, but to me it seems that cats in general don't care that much. Dogs do care.) But "life" itself doesn't care, some species usually care.
I don't get where you think the universe doesn't care?....it can't care in the sense that it looks on in utter detachment prior to embodiment...embodiment is when you the universe are experiencing itself as and through a mind/body mechanism ..caring has to come into play....else life would be total chaos...
Some parts of the universe, that are those species, do care, other parts don't care. Some parts are actively trying to hurt others, destroy life, cause suffering.
I care about telling the truth to my offspring...sometimes they prefer the lie, like when I tell them I am not in relationship with them, I say that we are equal to each other as one being...now if they truly cared about me, truly loved me, then nothing I say to them would turn them away...
You are telling them irrational stuff.
And children do need a very concrete emotional bond to parents, if you just care in general about everything and everyone, then you don't truly care about anyone. Some vague universal compassion is merely a caricature of actual personal bonds.
Sometimes truth does not want to be heard, but at the same time, truth cannot be turned away from...we always return to truth in the end because it's our natural resting place of peace harmony and contentment.
You seem to have misunderstood what the "truth" is. Finding personal harmony and contentment is good, but not a universal feature.
When you say value is a human construct...is this because you believe a human can die, so any value dies along side the one that invented it?
Of course humans die, that's a fact. All these thoughts and memories and self-awareness that I am, will be lost, scattered. And one day (maybe quite soon) the human race will end. The "absolute" is always there, it can't not be, but from the everyday perspective, things are impermanent.
Do you like being alive and experiencing life at multiple levels of human diversity and creativity...
I love being alive, I enjoy being alive, I love what some humans have achieved, but I'm disappointed by most humans.
or do you dislike life and you can't wait to die and your final wish is to never ever be born ever again?
Reincarnation doesn't exist so of course I, as this person, won't be born again.
I prefer existence to nonexistence, I don't want to die at all. I just wish this world would be a better place, waking up on a planet that will probably soon be blown up, is a bit disappointing.

I also have a question for you, do you understand that your precious oneness also means that you are "one" with Stalin? Oneness goes "both ways" you know.
Belinda
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

Post by Belinda »

Yrreg, contrary to what you said ,earlier, I do not believe in eternal values.By "I do not believe in eternal values" I mean that concepts of good and of bad are valued by humans alone, as far as anybody knows. It's possible that some more brainy other animals sort of conceptualise concepts of good and bad but perhaps that is to anthropomorphise other animals. I wouldn't know.

By " I believe in eternity" I mean I hope that eternity is the case, besides the case of temporality and relativity which we do actually experience. There may be intimations of eternity as illustrated in much fine art but that is probably analogical. If eternity is the case then prostitutes and prostitution will not be subject 'there' to evaluations, because evaluating depends upon relativity.

If God exists as eternal being then God is bound not to evaluate prostitutes and prostitution as bad. I'm afraid that if God exists as eternal being then God is bound not to evaluate much much worse people and institutions than prostitutes and prostitution!

Do you think that 'everlasting' and 'eternal' are synonyms?
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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

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Atla wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:15 amThe universe on the whole, doesn't care for itself. On the whole it doesn't do anything.
There is no such thing as universe. It's a mental construct... a concept.

The mind which is not a concept, has to be eternally existing for any thing to be known... it is the mind that doesn't care whether it's known or not. It's unborn.

The mind in abeyance is pure awareness, it doesn't know or do anything...but when awareness wants to know, it changes to a consciousness conscience of itself.. the mind is born, awareness becomes aware of itself.

Awareness aka the mind in abeyance does not need to care to be, it does not need knowledge of knowing itself in order to be. IT IS

But the mind that wants to know, has to change from being in abeyance aka latent pure awareness to knowing itself, aka conscious...this knowing needs awareness for awareness is the infinite source of all knowledge. Mind is both the giver and receiver both.

The giving aspect is infinite, but the receiving aspect is optional...in other words, it gives, but does not care about expectation or outcome. For it is already complete and fulfilled in every moment.

But to share that fulfilment, this one has to become a part-taker...and to part take, means there is no choice but to care...the desire to care is there, it's already a given...and taking that given is being part of the SELF that wants to know itself.

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Re: Prostitution and Eternal Values

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Belinda wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:56 am Yrreg, contrary to what you said ,earlier, I do not believe in eternal values.By "I do not believe in eternal values" I mean that concepts of good and of bad are valued by humans alone,
There is no such thing as a human.

A human is a mental construct....that which is a construct is not eternal, it is a temporal appearance of the constructer which has to be eternal.

Eternal is a concept too...arising in the timeless nothingness of being...which is being everything in every moment, including concepts.

Every moment that comes and goes...is an appearance of timelessness. Eternal just means timelessness.

Time is a concept appearing in timelessness.

Timelessness is that without beginning nor end.

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And that which is without beginning nor end...is the giver of what begins and ends.

Not the other way around Belinda.


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Last edited by Dontaskme on Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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