Prostitution and Eternal Values

[Lacewing]

Yrreg

Are you suggesting that if the earth were destroyed, eternal values as universal truths would no longer exist?

How can "eternal values" and "universal truths" be anything other than notions made-up by humans? Why in the world we think we know of such things is fascinating.

Little gods... making the Universe and all of reality in our own image?

[-1-]

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What YOU can't see, however, at least you give no evidence of it, is that Nick_A and you hold strong beliefs that can't be verified and you want us to accept your views as truth; and we hold views that can be and are verified by senses and logic, and yet you deny their validity.

It's not even that your (Dontaskme's and Nick_A's) views are opposed to ours. (Which they are, but that's not the main point.) The most disturbing about your posts, and what we, the rest of the board hold grievance against, is that you place value on completely unknowable things, and call it "knowledge" and "truth".

What is most disturbing about your posts is willingly limiting yourself to defining knowledge by sensory scientific truth and values by societal pragmatic decisions. Plato wrote of a greater reality above the divided line and sensory experience. You deny it while I'm open to it. Being open isn't believing but allowing for the conscious use of the quality of intuition to experience it. You believe in the Great Beast as the highest form of consciousness and I am open to a quality of consciousness far greater than Man on earth exhibits.

He just pretends to be logical, let him be, he needs the practice. He cannot take the fact that their might exist things outside of his understanding and it threatens his perspective of reality.

I dealt with him for the past couple months, he just self-destructs in a self-righteous "babies die in Africa; therefore God does not exist" mode, then cracks a few jokes about the absurdity of life in a vain effort to do a "yo bro" thing.

Half the time I am manipulating him and he doesn't even know it...its happening right now.

His most likely response will be to throw a few labels, accuse someone of obscurity, throw a joke, or all of the above. The question is, because I state this will happen, will he not do it to in an effort to prove I am wrong...or am I using reverse psychology to prove a point?

"Street Fighting Man"

Ev'rywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
Cause summer's here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
Cause in sleepy London town
There's just no place for a street fighting man
No
Hey! Think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well, then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
'Cause in sleepy London town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No
Hey! Said my name is called disturbance
I'll shout and scream, I'll kill the king, I'll rail at all his servants
Well, what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
Cause in sleepy London town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No

-- Jagger-Richards, "Street Fighting Men"

Looks like I stepped on a lot of toes just a bit too often... One has to decide sometimes between harmonious co-existence and calling a spade a spade, and stand up for his conviction. ("Will the defendant please rise...") (This last bit in the brackets was a joke. Played on the last 5 words of the preceding sentence.) (No, not a sentence pronounced by a judge for a conviction... although that, too. Oh, boy.)

Maybe if I put you, JohnDoe, on iggy, it will help... hey, why not.

Nick_A, you are obstinate enough to seamlessly ignore any reasonable opinion, so it's safe to ignore your opinions, even when fully visible.

[Greta]

Yrreg

Are you suggesting that if the earth were destroyed, eternal values as universal truths would no longer exist?

How can "eternal values" and "universal truths" be anything other than notions made-up by humans? Why in the world we think we know of such things is fascinating.

Little gods... making the Universe and all of reality in our own image?

Very much so, but we all know Nick has a terminal saint complex anyway. Anyway, if one believes in a larger and divine humanlike intelligence that governs our reality then I suppose it follows that the values aren't human-dependant. Personally, I think the only humanlike intelligence are that of humans.

To be fair, though, there could be simple eternal values shared by some other species and there's also the decent probability that there are many intelligent aliens in other regions of the cosmos, and we may all share certain values. Maybe patriarchy and unhealthy fixations on controlling women's bodies is universal?

[Lacewing]

Anyway, if one believes in a larger and divine humanlike intelligence that governs our reality then I suppose it follows that the values aren't human-dependant.

Yes. Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.

To be fair, though, there could be simple eternal values shared by some other species and there's also the decent probability that there are many intelligent aliens in other regions of the cosmos, and we may all share certain values. Maybe patriarchy and unhealthy fixations on controlling women's bodies is universal?

Such patterns throughout nature and the cosmos seem reasonable to expect. I like to imagine intelligent life forms who are at peace with their manifestation/life, and who have found highly loving and productive ways to expand and utilize energy beyond our comprehension. I realize that there will surely be an opposite force to that, somewhere in the Universe... as I suspect that all creative possibilities are playing out. Not only on the cosmic scale... but within our own humanoid selves... we are such manifestors... whether conscious and free, or in a haze of noise and intoxicated patterns.

[Belinda]

Greta wrote and Lacewing replied:

Anyway, if one believes in a larger and divine humanlike intelligence that governs our reality then I suppose it follows that the values aren't human-dependant.

Yes. Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.

But with eternity, time and temporal creatures are not implicated in learning or opining or anything else that creatures do. Eternity doesn't govern our reality; eternity is another, equal, aspect of reality. For all we can know there may be other aspects of reality besides eternity and relativity in time. It's hard to understand eternity since our lives are lived temporarily. There are however glimmerings of understanding of eternity.

Ability to perceive a glimmering of eternity doesn't turn humans into gods. The arts sometimes provide analogies of eternity and art appreciation doesn't make anybody a god. What "many theists" say about their concepts of an Almighty and of eternity is hardly relevant to philosophy and many theists have caused many blocks to understanding, reason, and happiness.

The jury is still out on mystics and it may be that some conscious states are especially conducive to understanding eternity. I reckon that this is matter for scientists.

[Greta]

Anyway, if one believes in a larger and divine humanlike intelligence that governs our reality then I suppose it follows that the values aren't human-dependant.

Yes. Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.

What they know are their internal observations and sensations, which they uncritically extrapolate to be universal.

To be fair, though, there could be simple eternal values shared by some other species and there's also the decent probability that there are many intelligent aliens in other regions of the cosmos, and we may all share certain values. Maybe patriarchy and unhealthy fixations on controlling women's bodies is universal?

Such patterns throughout nature and the cosmos seem reasonable to expect. I like to imagine intelligent life forms who are at peace with their manifestation/life, and who have found highly loving and productive ways to expand and utilize energy beyond our comprehension. I realize that there will surely be an opposite force to that, somewhere in the Universe... as I suspect that all creative possibilities are playing out. Not only on the cosmic scale... but within our own humanoid selves... we are such manifestors... whether conscious and free, or in a haze of noise and intoxicated patterns.

I always liked a comment by astronomer, Martin Reeve, who observed that any beings that are one billion years further advanced than humans would be as different from humans today as humans are from bacteria. Now imagine a bacterial colony understanding the mind of a human ...

[Greta]

Greta wrote and Lacewing replied:

Anyway, if one believes in a larger and divine humanlike intelligence that governs our reality then I suppose it follows that the values aren't human-dependant.

Yes. Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.

But with eternity, time and temporal creatures are not implicated in learning or opining or anything else that creatures do. Eternity doesn't govern our reality; eternity is another, equal, aspect of reality. For all we can know there may be other aspects of reality besides eternity and relativity in time. It's hard to understand eternity since our lives are lived temporarily. There are however glimmerings of understanding of eternity.

Ability to perceive a glimmering of eternity doesn't turn humans into gods. The arts sometimes provide analogies of eternity and art appreciation doesn't make anybody a god. What "many theists" say about their concepts of an Almighty and of eternity is hardly relevant to philosophy and many theists have caused many blocks to understanding, reason, and happiness.

The jury is still out on mystics and it may be that some conscious states are especially conducive to understanding eternity. I reckon that this is matter for scientists.

Will scientists make much headway in this area now, when they not done so beforehand? So far testing of mystics has seemed like studying sex by having subjects engage in the act on a stretcher bed in a sterile laboratory room, knowing that their every response is being monitored. It's simply offputting. One could say that the act of observation affects the event

[Arising_uk]

I know this because I don't know this...were you not listening the last time I said this.

I think I was but I must have been agog that someone can say this with a straight face.

We can only know something when it is in relation to something else. ..which in this case is not-knowing.

These are not relative terms.

Your faceless face.

Then how do you know it is a face?

Via knowledge of opposites. Nothing and Everything are the same No thing =ONE

So you keep saying but if they are opposites they cannot be the same thing and if they are no thing then there can't be one of them.

I am silent..there is only ever silence sounding.

But it should sound like no words?

No word can describe this...or all words describe it.

And yet if anything can be said at all it can be said clearly, why can you not do this then?

They really do.

Each to their own then.

What ever the eye is apparently seeing.

And what it apparently senses is an external world or what use for an eye?

Interesting which bits you decided to ignore in your reply.

[Nick_A]

Why is it that the modern secularist cannot distinguish between prostitution as a concept and what society defines as sexual prostitution? The reason basically is that the modern secularist has been conditioned to forget God. And it is only through remembering the human connection to higher consciousness that it can avoid its own demise, its own descnt into chaos. It is through remembering God that the human mind can escape from dualism and acquire a human triune perspective.

Stephen Hawing wrote that philosophy is dead and it is true in modern secular society. But it is alive in the underground and that is what is important. There are still the means for those still spiritually alive and who can grasp the difference between prostitution as a concept and sexual prostitution defined by society. Our connection to higher consciousness which makes the value of anamnesis possible is being forgotten. The ones who will remember have learned of it through what they and their families lived through. When we have forgotten God there is nothing to objectively prostitute. Only subjective concepts of prostitution remain

Alexander Solzhenitsyn lived through the results of forgetting God. He would be condemned by the modern snowflakes and was actually booed during a speech at Harvard. It must be the case since they are incapable of objective prostitution. They have forgotten God.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/47643.html

Chris Banescu

As a survivor of the Communist Holocaust I am horrified to witness how my beloved America, my adopted country, is gradually being transformed into a secularist and atheistic utopia, where communist ideals are glorified and promoted, while Judeo-Christian values and morality are ridiculed and increasingly eradicated from the public and social consciousness of our nation. Under the decades-long assault and militant radicalism of many so-called “liberal” and “progressive” elites, God has been progressively erased from our public and educational institutions, to be replaced with all manner of delusion, perversion, corruption, violence, decadence, and insanity.
It is no coincidence that as Marxist ideologies and secularist principles engulf the culture and pervert mainstream thinking, individual freedoms and liberties are rapidly disappearing. As a consequence, Americans feel increasingly more powerless and subjugated by some of the most radical and hypocritical, least democratic, and characterless individuals our society has ever produced.
Those of us who have experienced and witnesses first-hand the atrocities and terror of communism understand fully why such evil takes root, how it grows and deceives, and the kind of hell it will ultimately unleash on the innocent and the faithful. Godlessness is always the first step towards tyranny and oppression!
Nobel laureate, Orthodox Christian author, and Russian dissident, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, in his “Godlessness: the First Step to the Gulag” address, given when he received the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion on May of 1983, explained how the Russian revolution and the communist takeover were facilitated by an atheistic mentality an a long process of secularization which alienated the people from God and traditional Christian morality and beliefs. He rightly concluded: “Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.”
The text of his Templeton Address is provided below. The parallels with the current crisis and moral decay in American society are striking and frightening. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear!

[Lacewing]

There are however glimmerings of understanding of eternity.

How do we know that these glimmerings aren't simply the edge of one facet of countless expanding facets?

Sure we can imagine... and even expand into new areas of awareness as much as possible with our dense forms and noisy/static energy... but are we really capable of touching and knowing the flowing infinite when our whole human structure and vibration is based on beginnings and endings and limitation and separateness?

I've experienced what appeared to be expanded states of clarity beyond the noise and ideas of this world... yet I'm still guessing that such a thing was just one facet of countless. I "saw" and was aware... from a completely awake and sober place... of no timeline... no beginning or end... there was just "being". There were no judgments, desires, fears. Just awareness without any judgment or need. Wow!! That's why I question when we humans superimpose definitions/judgments onto that which we claim is BEYOND human. I know it's hard to describe such ideas otherwise... but every layer of description turns it into something of our own creation, while we claim it is beyond us. Recognizing how much we fabricate and tie our identity to is essential, I think, to reclaiming some of the power we give away to stories and unconscious agendas.

What "many theists" say about their concepts of an Almighty and of eternity is hardly relevant to philosophy and many theists have caused many blocks to understanding, reason, and happiness.

Agreed. But I speak to that because it is such a large element in humankind that seems to so effectively demonstrate our greatest errors in logic, judgment, and self-elevation to imagined god-like superiority over all that we are actually a part of.

Loved being able to put this into words this morning. Thanks Belinda.

[Dontaskme]

Then how do you know it is a face?

The same way you know that you were born by a thing called a mother. Face is just a concept humans have invented to make sense of life.

So you keep saying but if they are opposites they cannot be the same thing and if they are no thing then there can't be one of them.

No they are not the same thing, a thing cannot be not a thing... just as the concept apple cannot be the concept orange..concepts are fixed things that cannot change. To know that requires the opposite knowing to exist in the same moment which is one unitary knowing appearing as duality.

And yet if anything can be said at all it can be said clearly, why can you not do this then?

Same reason why when you show a pet dog or a cat a book and ask them to read it ..they can't read it....and don't need to read it to function ..reading is in the illusory story of other, it's a fiction...believed to be real.


Humans read only what they want to hear.

The brain already understands what is meaning in the human dimension from it's conditioning of language that has been imputed into it from birth...speaking clearly or writing clearly is totally irrelevant to the brain, the brain already understands human language and it's meaning.

See here why..


I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.

[Lacewing]

Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.

What they know are their internal observations and sensations, which they uncritically extrapolate to be universal.

Well said!

I always liked a comment by astronomer, Martin Reeve, who observed that any beings that are one billion years further advanced than humans would be as different from humans today as humans are from bacteria. Now imagine a bacterial colony understanding the mind of a human ...

Yes, that makes sense to me! There is no logical reason to think that our process or current developmental stage is some sort of model pinnacle of rightness, intelligence, awareness, or unique divineness. It's more likely that we are one branch of creative possibility gone wonky... in order to inform the entire cosmic network of what happens on that path. But, no reason to get down on ourselves -- let's have a sense of humor and love about it, while demonstrating our phenomenal capability for shifting beyond it!

A side note: I've wondered if I shouldn't say some of the things I do in such provocative ways. Yet, if I suspect that we are all of the same stuff, intricately connected, then it's just one part of awareness talking to another part of awareness... reasoning things out. The process may look risky on the human level... as some people might struggle with identity and fears and sanity. But, again, I suspect that all of the necessary filters and accelerators are built-in as they need to be... for people to ignore, or protect themselves, or be inspired, or implode. I would just like to say that the very best strategy for getting through fear and terror is tapping into love. Even if there's not understanding or agreement -- love transforms everything into a more expansive vibration. If someone doesn't know how to have love... that's a really good quality to acquire.

[Eodnhoj7]

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What is most disturbing about your posts is willingly limiting yourself to defining knowledge by sensory scientific truth and values by societal pragmatic decisions. Plato wrote of a greater reality above the divided line and sensory experience. You deny it while I'm open to it. Being open isn't believing but allowing for the conscious use of the quality of intuition to experience it. You believe in the Great Beast as the highest form of consciousness and I am open to a quality of consciousness far greater than Man on earth exhibits.

He just pretends to be logical, let him be, he needs the practice. He cannot take the fact that their might exist things outside of his understanding and it threatens his perspective of reality.

I dealt with him for the past couple months, he just self-destructs in a self-righteous "babies die in Africa; therefore God does not exist" mode, then cracks a few jokes about the absurdity of life in a vain effort to do a "yo bro" thing.

Half the time I am manipulating him and he doesn't even know it...its happening right now.

His most likely response will be to throw a few labels, accuse someone of obscurity, throw a joke, or all of the above. The question is, because I state this will happen, will he not do it to in an effort to prove I am wrong...or am I using reverse psychology to prove a point?

"Street Fighting Man"

Ev'rywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
Cause summer's here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
Cause in sleepy London town
There's just no place for a street fighting man
No
Hey! Think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well, then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
'Cause in sleepy London town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No
Hey! Said my name is called disturbance
I'll shout and scream, I'll kill the king, I'll rail at all his servants
Well, what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
Cause in sleepy London town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No

-- Jagger-Richards, "Street Fighting Men"

Looks like I stepped on a lot of toes just a bit too often... One has to decide sometimes between harmonious co-existence and calling a spade a spade, and stand up for his conviction. ("Will the defendant please rise...") (This last bit in the brackets was a joke. Played on the last 5 words of the preceding sentence.) (No, not a sentence pronounced by a judge for a conviction... although that, too. Oh, boy.)

Maybe if I put you, JohnDoe, on iggy, it will help... hey, why not.

"I dealt with him for the past couple months, he just self-destructs in a self-righteous "babies die in Africa; therefore God does not exist" mode, then cracks a few jokes about the absurdity of life in a vain effort to do a "yo bro" thing. "

Nick_A, you are obstinate enough to seamlessly ignore any reasonable opinion, so it's safe to ignore your opinions, even when fully visible.

"I will answer you as soon as you write nominative sentences with assertions, instead of questions. Who do you think you are, that we hop to answering your questions? State your position, we don't play your guessing game. Actually, I won't answer your nominative sentences either."

"Half the time I am manipulating him and he doesn't even know it...its happening right now."


....predictable.

[Dontaskme]

And what it apparently senses is an external world or what use for an eye?

Interesting which bits you decided to ignore in your reply.

What on earth is an external world?

External is a concept known by no thing aka consciousness, no one has seen an external world except as an idea...how does the eye approach the external...where ever the eye is.. so is what it is looking at...what the eye is looking at is not somewhere external to it..it is right here square alongside the eye that is looking, there is no gap ..the eye and what it sees are always in the exact same place, namely, here now the only place there is... here and there are mental concepts, an illusory relative division the mind makes via the attempt to make sense of spacial awareness which is actually everywhere at once... the concept is the object and the awareness aka the eye is the space...these two opposites are what define each other as appearing separate..but it's an illusion, the separation does not exist except in the mind of concepts...where ever you go there you are, you cannot separate yourself from where you always are...to be in two places at once... here and there don't exist in the real world except as concepts.

Try approaching the external and see if you can grab hold of it? where is it? move forward to grab hold of it and you'll see that as you move the eye moves with you..you can never get past the horizon....the eye is in the exact same place every time, the external is an illusion.. there is nothing external to the eye..what the eye sees is inseparable from what it is looking at.

[Eodnhoj7]

Yrreg

Are you suggesting that if the earth were destroyed, eternal values as universal truths would no longer exist?

How can "eternal values" and "universal truths" be anything other than notions made-up by humans? Why in the world we think we know of such things is fascinating.

Little gods... making the Universe and all of reality in our own image?

Apparently the gods don't know who they are any more....

If human's don't know anything...then how can they say they no nothing and be correct?