Prostitution and Eternal Values

[Dubious]

Plato’s cave is such that wherever attempts at aligning with objective quality take place there will be an equal effort to secularize and corrupt it.

Is there a mathematical formula for that?

[Greta]

Plato’s cave is such that wherever attempts at aligning with objective quality take place there will be an equal effort to secularize and corrupt it.

Is there a mathematical formula for that?

Yes, the US policy gridlock formula is Republicans minus Democrats equals zero.

R - D = 0.

Paradoxically, despite the above, R ≠ D because these are what's known as "unreasonable numbers" (not to be confused with irrational numbers)

[Nick_A]

Plato’s cave is such that wherever attempts at aligning with objective quality take place there will be an equal effort to secularize and corrupt it.

Is there a mathematical formula for that?

Sure: what goes up must come down. Sisyphus learned this the hard way. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Conscious attempts towards awakening are met with a mechanical but equal force to prevent it. Water seeks its own level as does fallen collective human being. Those disturbing this level will earn the wrath of the Great Beast as Socrates found out. Beware! Just continue to know your place in Plato's cave and you'll be OK

[Greta]

From where did humanity fall? What was this golden age when humans were better than they are today? Which place and time?

Was that the time and place when nailing people to pieces of wood was public entertainment and people treated illness with exorcism and faith healing?

[Arising_uk]

We've also learned that the estimated 1.324 billion Hindus in India are all full of shit for taking eternal values seriously. One of the great benefits of a secular progressive education is that it can declare with credentials who is full of shit. Progress.

I'd take those 'eternal values' a whole lot more seriously if it wasn't for the fact that the vast bulk of those Hindus are walking around knee-deep in shit due to the 'higher' castes not caring about building sewers or toilets for them and that Hindu women can't take a shit in the fields at night for fear of being raped.

[Nick_A]

From where did humanity fall? What was this golden age when humans were better than they are today? Which place and time?

Was that the time when nailing people to pieces of wood was public entertainment?

The fall of man's being as inner unity began with the initial division into "them" or Man and Woman. From there problems ensued. This necessitated the original human condition in which imagination took the place of human consciousness. It has been downhill ever since.

[Greta]

From where did humanity fall? What was this golden age when humans were better than they are today? Which place and time?

Was that the time when nailing people to pieces of wood was public entertainment?

The fall of man's being as inner unity began with the initial division into "them" or Man and Woman. From there problems ensued. This necessitated the original human condition in which imagination took the place of human consciousness. It has been downhill ever since.

That's not a straight answer. The separation into male and female happened billions of years before humanity.

You said that humanity today is fallen. I am asking about a time when humans were not fallen. You've not addressed the question. Again, is there a time or place in human history that you believe to be higher than "fallen" humanity today? Which place? Which time? And why do you believe they were better and what must modern humanity do to "catch up".

If you are implying (why not be explicit rather than vague?) that humans are were fallen right from the start by virtue of our "discursive mind", that still begs the question as to what was the better state beforehand? Mindless reflexes?

[Nick_A]

We've also learned that the estimated 1.324 billion Hindus in India are all full of shit for taking eternal values seriously. One of the great benefits of a secular progressive education is that it can declare with credentials who is full of shit. Progress.

I'd take those 'eternal values' a whole lot more seriously if it wasn't for the fact that the vast bulk of those Hindus are walking around knee-deep in shit due to the 'higher' castes not caring about building sewers or toilets for them and that Hindu women can't take a shit in the fields at night for fear of being raped.

When eternal values are corrupted, why blame eternal values? Why not admit that that we are hypocrites. That is an elemental aspect of the human condition. You can either bask in denial of eternal values or seek to consciously affirm through self knowledge why we are incapable of being normal for human being.

[Greta]

The only conclusion is that there was no better time, that humanity has not fallen, but is maturing with all the attendant trials and tribulations of the maturing process.

The claim that humanity has fallen is completely without basis or merit.

[Nick_A]

The only conclusion is that there was no better time, that humanity has not fallen, but is maturing with all the attendant trials and tribulations of the maturing process.

The claim that humanity has fallen is completely without basis or merit.

You are unaware of the results of the fallen human condition. A normal human being would consist primarily of head, heart, and body. The head would be the source of consciousness, the heart or solar plexus level would be the source of "feelings" of "objective value. The body would be the source of sensory experience or the connection with the external world through the senses. A human being worthy of the name human would be governed by the head. The emotional awareness of value would serve to give meaning to consciousness while the body would be the servant of the head and serve conscious decisions pettaining to life on the planet

The fallen human condition has resulted in people living upside down. They are governed by their bodies and these needs are justified through negative emotions or self esteem replacing feelings. Consciousness connecting above and below is replaced by attempts at dualistic reason defending the dominance of negative emotions.

Various techniques in the distant past as in pre-sand Egypt and Atlantis enabled citizens to become more human and realistic but were gradually lost due to human nature. so now we feature the glorification of the body, the expression of negative emotions, and binary thought replacing conscious perception. You say it is an improvement. It is the secular position

[Dubious]

Plato’s cave is such that wherever attempts at aligning with objective quality take place there will be an equal effort to secularize and corrupt it.

Is there a mathematical formula for that?

Yes, the US policy gridlock formula is Republicans minus Democrats equals zero.

R - D = 0.

Paradoxically, despite the above, R ≠ D because these are what's known as "unreasonable numbers" (not to be confused with irrational numbers)

Yes but there are those to whom the difference is not clear - unreasonable and irrational being equally reasonable - as in subsuming metaphor to be history, re pre-sand Egypt and Atlantis. That presumably was the time when men were men and women were women as ultra-enlightened creatures who had no way to go but down. I suppose they were both around at the same time or...were they in such a state of Oneness and perfection that nobody could tell the difference because there wasn't any!

Anyway! when or if the dichotomy occurred that made two out of one, that's when people started living upside down. Seriously! this has been going on for far too long! It's high-time we made a 180 degree turn and go back to walking on our heads.

[Dubious]

Sure: what goes up must come down. Sisyphus learned this the hard way

...and like Sisyphus some god of enlightenment must have condemned you to repeat the same BS incessantly; perhaps after having egregiously infringed some divine right of an enlighted one in a former life? You should get to "know yourself" better. Obviously the job isn't complete!

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction

Very true. In your case you start with something intelligent that someone else came up with and by the time it filters through you it ends up in the kind of heap most people avoid stepping in. I'd call that an "opposite reaction" alright.

Beware! Just continue to know your place in Plato's cave and you'll be OK

My Plato's cave, if that's where I'm living, is bedecked with many beautiful crystal chandeliers...and though that statement is vastly overstated, I wouldn't want to inhabit your 3rd dimension of thought. It reminds me too much of a never ceasing, constantly reverberating echo chamber...the mentally cracked version of the myth you mention.

Unfortunately, forced by the feedback of knowing yourself as well as you presume to, continues the saga of perpetually rolling the same secular stone just to have it fall back on you. It would turn to dust once you understand what the word SECULAR denotes, means and implies without all your supercilious virtual reality connotations. In the meantime keep recycling the BS! If you can't feel the pain, you'll never know the solution.

[Dontaskme]

DaM

... it's the secondary knowledge aka the ego that is imagined...consciousness can know it does not exist, but it cannot know it does exist.

Here is where we differ. The ego IMO gets a bad rap in these times because people don't distinguish between the conscious ego and the corrupted ego of Man on earth suffering the human condition.

Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

It's not bad rapping the ego..it's stating the obviousness of the condition...of course the ego plays a necessary part of the human condition, we are not human without it.

The ego doesn't know difference...it's conditioned from birth to be the doer. It doesn't see that it's an imagined entity, that it's secondary knowledge, at least not until it transcends it's imaginary condition to enter through the gateless gate of nonduality...the stateless state of un-conditional love...

But that's all changing now...thanks to the internet and the myriad of nonduality speakers.

People are starting to recognise their true nature....I know a ton of under 20's who are fully self-aware...this is great news.

Take people like Lisa Cairns for example, she was beginning to become fully self-AWARE at a very young age...she's 36 now, and a brilliant nonduality speaker.

[Greta]

Is there a mathematical formula for that?

Yes, the US policy gridlock formula is Republicans minus Democrats equals zero.

R - D = 0.

Paradoxically, despite the above, R ≠ D because these are what's known as "unreasonable numbers" (not to be confused with irrational numbers)

Yes but there are those to whom the difference is not clear - unreasonable and irrational being equally reasonable - as in subsuming metaphor to be history, re pre-sand Egypt and Atlantis. That presumably was the time when men were men and women were women as ultra-enlightened creatures who had no way to go but down. I suppose they were both around at the same time or...were they in such a state of Oneness and perfection that nobody could tell the difference because there wasn't any!

Anyway! when or if the dichotomy occurred that made two out of one, that's when people started living upside down. Seriously! this has been going on for far too long! It's high-time we made a 180 degree turn and go back to walking on our heads.

A career as a guru beckons! Go tell it from the mountain, brother!

Be quick, though, I hear that Nick is in the market for mountains in which to teach the way of the Grumbling Evasive Rationalising Misogynist to his many follower.

[Greta]

Various techniques in the distant past as in pre-sand Egypt and Atlantis enabled citizens to become more human and realistic but were gradually lost due to human nature. so now we feature the glorification of the body, the expression of negative emotions, and binary thought replacing conscious perception. You say it is an improvement. It is the secular position

So only ancient Egyptians and Atlantis? So that was the peak and there was a steady fall?