Information does not exist as such

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Greta
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Greta » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:59 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 am
-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm
What is the topic of contention in the discussion between you, Atla, and uwot?
I honestly don't know.. I asked many times but he never stated it. But now he seems to be saying that he agrees with me.
A misrepresentation. In fact he offered you a chance to clarify your position, which did not make sense to him (or me, for that matter) but instead you ignore this and claim he is agreeing with you? Please explain.

uwot made it clear that he sees reality as stuff and its unevenness - information. You seemingly dispute that there is any stuff, that it's all just information, which makes about as much sense as saying it's "turtles all the way down".

uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:01 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 am
-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm
What is the topic of contention in the discussion between you, Atla, and uwot?
I honestly don't know.. I asked many times but he never stated it. But now he seems to be saying that he agrees with me.
This:
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:44 am
Simply put, you exist in a massive state of delusion that you have no idea is there. And that's normal for everyone in the West.
This:
Atla wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:13 pm
Western empiricism is, without Westerners realizing it, interpreted through dualistic thinking, and so can be seen as dualistic.
And this:
Atla wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pm
If it's not smooth then stuff is no longer needed, just the lumps and eddies. But stuff + lumps and eddies is a redundant double vision.

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-1-
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by -1- » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:11 am

Greta wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:59 am

uwot made it clear that he sees reality as stuff and its unevenness - information. You seemingly dispute that there is any stuff, that it's all just information, which makes about as much sense as saying it's "turtles all the way down".
The way I read it, Atla said that stuff and information exist, but they are inseparable. And therefore can be reduced to being only information.

(In my opinion that is right, if you accept the definition of information by Atla:"information is something". I disagree with this definition, however, and do not accept it. I voiced that earlier, why.

But "something being something" is not inconsistent with Atla's thinking. His stance makes sense, and if you can accept his definition, then you accept that our arguments against his are not valid.)

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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by -1- » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:31 am

uwot wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:01 am
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 am
-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm
What is the topic of contention in the discussion between you, Atla, and uwot?
I honestly don't know.. I asked many times but he never stated it. But now he seems to be saying that he agrees with me.
-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm
I fully agree with Greta's analysis on this, so I shan't delve into it any deeper.
This:
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:44 am
Simply put, you exist in a massive state of delusion that you have no idea is there. And that's normal for everyone in the West.
-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm
What Atla wrote there is not an argument. That is an outright, un-called-for insult. It is simply not true. It may be an area of thought in which you two disagree, but it's merely an opinion, not a reasoned argument.
This:
Atla wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:13 pm
Western empiricism is, without Westerners realizing it, interpreted through dualistic thinking, and so can be seen as dualistic.
-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm
Dualism in and by itself has no significance... whether what Atla insists on is true or not, is not a matter of concern. By making this a point of contention, uwot, you create a stance that accepts dualism also like Atla, as dualism being significant in any way.
And this:
Atla wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pm
If it's not smooth then stuff is no longer needed, just the lumps and eddies. But stuff + lumps and eddies is a redundant double vision.
-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm
Lumps and eddies are not possible without stuff... it's like mountains and valleys on Earth's surface are not possible without matter occupying them. If there is no Earth matter, then information has no carrier.

To me it seems that at this point Atla has lost his grip on conceptually sizing up the example.

However, you two haven't come to an agreement on what information is. According to Atla, "information is something". If you accept this sense -- and Atla was all the way arguing with having this sense in mind -- then you must accept Atla's stance. Of course you must accept Atla's definition only to the extent that you can see where his argument is coming from. You don't have to accept the definition of information as given by Atla on a permanent basis.
(Wink.) ;-)

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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:57 am

Greta wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:59 am
A misrepresentation. In fact he offered you a chance to clarify your position, which did not make sense to him (or me, for that matter) but instead you ignore this and claim he is agreeing with you? Please explain.
My position was clear from the start to some of the other posters here. I then went into in-depth clarification like 3 times when asked.
uwot made it clear that he sees reality as stuff and its unevenness - information. You seemingly dispute that there is any stuff, that it's all just information, which makes about as much sense as saying it's "turtles all the way down".
uwot wrote:Some physicists believe that quantum fields have mechanical properties i.e. they can have lumps and eddies in them. In such a view, which I think is quite compelling, it is not the case "That matter/energy are "distinct" form that field, and interacting with it."
Speak for yourself, you seem to be disagreeing with uwot here (and with me).
Now you both seem to be attacking me, just with opposite statements.

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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:01 am
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 am
-1- wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm
What is the topic of contention in the discussion between you, Atla, and uwot?
I honestly don't know.. I asked many times but he never stated it. But now he seems to be saying that he agrees with me.
This:
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:44 am
Simply put, you exist in a massive state of delusion that you have no idea is there. And that's normal for everyone in the West.
This:
Atla wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:13 pm
Western empiricism is, without Westerners realizing it, interpreted through dualistic thinking, and so can be seen as dualistic.
And this:
Atla wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pm
If it's not smooth then stuff is no longer needed, just the lumps and eddies. But stuff + lumps and eddies is a redundant double vision.
You don't seem to have the vaguest ability to process context. I explained like 2-3 times, that dualistic thinking is a more general cognitive error that can pop up in several forms and on several levels.

Dualism of information and stuff is such an obvious error that many people see through it in the West, or don't have it in the first place. Then there are one or more deeper forms of it that I also addressed, but that went over your head, as I also explained.

Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:10 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:11 am
if you accept the definition of information by Atla:"information is something". I disagree with this definition, however, and do not accept it. I voiced that earlier, why.
Atla wrote:Nowadays many people share the belief that information is more than just knowledge, that it is a new kind of "something" that was discovered lately. That's what I'm arguing against.
I get the feeling you are pretty much misinterpreting what I wrote, too.

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-1-
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by -1- » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:38 pm

Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:10 pm
-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:11 am
if you accept the definition of information by Atla:"information is something". I disagree with this definition, however, and do not accept it. I voiced that earlier, why.
Atla wrote:Nowadays many people share the belief that information is more than just knowledge, that it is a new kind of "something" that was discovered lately. That's what I'm arguing against.
I get the feeling you are pretty much misinterpreting what I wrote, too.
Well, after I asked you to define information, did you write anything essentially different, from information being something? You also wrote that it was recently discovered. It's new. And you are arguing against that, but you accept it as a definition (since there are no other definitions supplied by you.)

It is puzzling that you accept the definition yet you are arguing against it.

How else should I have interpreted what you wrote? I think you wrote succinctly, clearly, and precisely what you thought. I have no problem with the syntax or the semantics. I have no problem understanding any of the words you used. You and I are both proficient in English. Very highly. How do you think I misunderstood your definition? Are you saying that I misunderstood what you wrote, or are you saying that I ought to have derived some meaning from it which is not expressly stated?

I am open for further discussion on this. I might stop any time, though, please note that.

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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:35 pm

-1- wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:38 pm
Well, after I asked you to define information, did you write anything essentially different, from information being something? You also wrote that it was recently discovered. It's new. And you are arguing against that, but you accept it as a definition (since there are no other definitions supplied by you.)

It is puzzling that you accept the definition yet you are arguing against it.

How else should I have interpreted what you wrote? I think you wrote succinctly, clearly, and precisely what you thought. I have no problem with the syntax or the semantics. I have no problem understanding any of the words you used. You and I are both proficient in English. Very highly. How do you think I misunderstood your definition? Are you saying that I misunderstood what you wrote, or are you saying that I ought to have derived some meaning from it which is not expressly stated?

I am open for further discussion on this. I might stop any time, though, please note that.
People can and do define information in dozens of different ways. I gave a general description in the opening comment about what I basically mean by information and what I basically don't mean by information.

Those dozens of different definitions can basically be divided into two fundamentally different categories:

Category 1: information is abstract knowledge, description, physical information, it is an abstraction of "stuff"

Category 2: information is "something" that was discovered lately, some kind of new stuff, some kind of new substance, it exists independently, it exists in addition to and iteracts with "stuff"

Only one of these can be correct.

The premise of this topic is that 1 is correct and 2 is nonsense. I take position 1. You also take position 1.

(As far as I can tell: Troll - 1; Greta - 2; Paul Astin Murphy - 2; uwot - probably 1, but he refuses to state anything about the real world)

My point is I don't think I was contradicting myself, we just used the word "something" differently there.

uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:24 pm

Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm
You don't seem to have the vaguest ability to process context.
Maybe. Perhaps you could help me by explaining the context better.
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm
I explained like 2-3 times, that dualistic thinking is a more general cognitive error that can pop up in several forms and on several levels.
I'm sure that is true. My point is that not everyone in the west falls victim to it.
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm
Dualism of information and stuff is such an obvious error that many people see through it in the West, or don't have it in the first place.
Not entirely sure what you mean by that, but I take the reference to "many people" to be an improvement on "everyone in the West".
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm
Then there are one or more deeper forms of it that I also addressed, but that went over your head, as I also explained.
Well, if you don't think I understand, you won't change that with finger pointing and name calling.

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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:49 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:24 pm
My point is that not everyone in the west falls victim to it.
Yes and you're wrong, almost everyone in the West falls victim to the most subtle forms of dualistic thinking. It is pretty much not possible not to.
Because it is there in the very structure of language, it is there in every Western thought, it is there in the culture, it works on subtle, subconsious levels that are normally unnoticeable. And the alternative wouldn't make much sense either, when still thinking dualistically.
These things can only really be understood after one was exposed long enough to the Eastern worldviews.
We Westerners normally think that becoming an atheist and delving into science gives us a fairly accurate picture. Who would expect that that's just the first step and the greatest relevation is still yet to come?
But this is mostly off topic so I'd rather not comment on it anymore.
uwot wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:24 pm
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm
Dualism of information and stuff is such an obvious error that many people see through it in the West, or don't have it in the first place.
Not entirely sure what you mean by that
So back to information..
Don't you know what I meant by a dualism of information and stuff?

uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:14 pm

Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:49 pm
These things can only really be understood after one was exposed long enough to the Eastern worldview.
What exactly were you exposed to, and how long did it take?
Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm
Don't you know what I meant by a dualism of information and stuff?
Yes. I just don't know what you mean by "many people see through it in the West, or don't have it in the first place."

Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:51 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:14 pm
Yes. I just don't know what you mean by "many people see through it in the West, or don't have it in the first place."
People who realize that information is just abstraction, I would roughly further divide into two subgroups (I mean this is just my subjective division):

1/a: in addition to stuff, they use "information" in their thinking, as some kind of bolts and eddies, but they know that that's just a pseudo-dualism, just a useful way of thinking, they see through it

1/b: they simply lack any notion of "information" in their thinking, they just purely use stuff (or lack any notion of stuff and purely use information)

Doesn't really matter which one, they both know that there is no information-stuff dualism in the ontological sense.

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Greta
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Greta » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:33 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:57 am
Greta wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:59 am
A misrepresentation. In fact he offered you a chance to clarify your position, which did not make sense to him (or me, for that matter) but instead you ignore this and claim he is agreeing with you? Please explain.
My position was clear from the start to some of the other posters here. I then went into in-depth clarification like 3 times when asked.
uwot made it clear that he sees reality as stuff and its unevenness - information. You seemingly dispute that there is any stuff, that it's all just information, which makes about as much sense as saying it's "turtles all the way down".
uwot wrote:Some physicists believe that quantum fields have mechanical properties i.e. they can have lumps and eddies in them. In such a view, which I think is quite compelling, it is not the case "That matter/energy are "distinct" form that field, and interacting with it."
Speak for yourself, you seem to be disagreeing with uwot here (and with me).
Now you both seem to be attacking me, just with opposite statements.
Oh for f's sake, ease off on the drama, Mary-Lou! No one is "attacking" you. You will note on other threads where people really are "attacking". This is not attacking but is known as "disagreement". We are allowed to disagree with you and challenge your statements.

Above you have misinterpreted my post based on the absence of an optional comma - there is the stuff and there is the unevenness of the stuff - lumps and eddies. Like uwot, I have argued this point from the very start. The reductionism of everything to information is highly speculative and also needs to demonstrate the emergences from the initial "source code".

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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by -1- » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:45 am

Atla wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:35 pm
Atla wrote, in response to -1-:
Category 1: information is abstract knowledge, description, physical information, it is an abstraction of "stuff"

Category 2: information is "something" that was discovered lately, some kind of new stuff, some kind of new substance, it exists independently, it exists in addition to and iteracts with "stuff"

Only one of these can be correct.

The premise of this topic is that 1 is correct and 2 is nonsense. I take position 1. You also take position 1.
I agree, that we have a common set (intersection of conceptual areas of opinion) of what information is. I also deny that information is of Category 2.

My opinion is different from yours inasmuch as I differentiate between "stuff" and "information". To me, information is a communicated knowledge. DNA has information how to build a baby from zygotes. A bus schedule has information when the next bus leaves a station. A smell has information to a dog that says "edible" or "leave it alone". A movement and some warmth gives information to a snake that the warm moving body is edible or else dangerous to the snake.

I am a warm and moving body, but to a dog a am not dinner and under the right circumstances, am not danger to him. I am warm and moving, but a bus schedule will never take me for a meal or for danger. I'm warm and moving, yet the cell that uses DNA in its division will never recognize that.

While being respectful of your opinion, I maintain, along with your other critics, Atla, that information is separate from stuff. Information is the transferred knowledge or signals or triggers, if you wish. That presupposes that the signal or triggers will be understood by a recipient. Without a receiver there is no communication.

While information can not exist without a carrier, it is not wise to say the information is the same as the carrier. If it were the same, then I would be a meal to a bus schedule and I would be a meal to a DNA string.

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