Information does not exist as such

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Dontaskme
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:01 pm

Greta wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:36 am

Your God comment is just guesswork and wishful thinking but I appreciate that you need to believe this to be happy and dare not deviate from your internal "gospel".
It's all guess work...do you not see this? ...you have never been alive before and suddenly you got this you and this universe all figured out have you? You are creating you..no one else is doing that for you.

All thinking is a cult artificially created out of nothing. The faCULTy for thinking...aka the brain....the brain has absolutely no idea of what's illusion or real...these concepts are artificially created by belief...you are the action figure for the manifestation of images...the dream machine. There is nothing behind the image..there is no little man behind the curtain pulling your strings...so who are you Pinocchio? ....this is not the land of Oz...so who are you...or are you just wishful thinking?

Everything is believed concept ...which is wishful thinking.

Without thought..you are NOTHING.

Please stop deluding yourself. And then blaming it on others.

What the heck are you talking about... happy? ...does a tree need to be happy just to be a tree...your the deluded one here, and that is what I am trying to point out to you...happiness is your natural state, it's a stateless state, it does not depend on anything external to it to make it happy...your the unhappy one believing happiness is something to attain..to get...there is nothing to get....and that in and of itself is the bliss that passes all understanding.


If the God comment is just guesswork and wishful thinking..then so too is the Greta concept..it's all CON-cepts...do you not see this?


.

OuterLimits
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by OuterLimits » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:21 pm

Hi all

This question about what "exists" comes down to the solipsistic question.

Is there "stuff" or is it all "information" being fed to the perceiver?

Troll
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Troll » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:32 pm

“We never see the Moon. The Moon is out there, ~400000 kilometers away from us.”
Starting this way the issue is in principle insoluble. Since it requires the light to undergo processes in the brain that is already a thing alongside the light. As Nietzsche said, very simply, the eye can not make the eye. This is the standard problem of consciousness. Dennett tries to solve it, not solve it, but set it aside, by claiming that the true world is “incorrigibly” the same as the represented world.

The phenomenological attitude is justified by its directness. It describes what happens, not a speculation that requires reflection. The “natural” account is a theory, which speculates on the production of the “representation” out of the “true world” or “reality of things themselves”. The “Two Table” account and Locke’s view of the qualities is the proximate propaedeutic for understanding the zone of fancey the “naturalist” necessarily comes to. It is a worn out and moldy faith.
“subjective idealism correctly”
This is a vacant rubric your using to mislead yourself more than others. It doesn’t milead me, since I can see through it. It makes as much sense to return the insult and regard you as a “subjective idealist”, it’s prattle.

“In this regard it's pretty much the opposite, it's more like about seeing through abstractions, understanding them for what they are, not taking them too literally.”


Well, one must recall, that when Edison brought the phonograph out for public trial a physicist leapt from his seat and pointing the finger of a true believer intoned the words, “Charlton! You damned ventriloquist!!”

As a ventriloquist of Berkeley, who maintend he was against all you just listed as evil, and for plain or common sense, I must say you are very superficial. One cannot trade in textbook caricatures if one is to overcome the natural dread of thinking.

If you answer polemically I'm not going to respond. Is one to simply debate for cheep and shallow political reasons, which have nothing to do with serious minded investigation? Your faith is irrational, stupid, dishonest and ill-informed. Forged through corrosive compulsory education. Schizophrenia is your word for heresy.

Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:47 am

Troll wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:32 pm
Starting this way the issue is in principle insoluble. Since it requires the light to undergo processes in the brain that is already a thing alongside the light. As Nietzsche said, very simply, the eye can not make the eye. This is the standard problem of consciousness. Dennett tries to solve it, not solve it, but set it aside, by claiming that the true world is “incorrigibly” the same as the represented world.

The phenomenological attitude is justified by its directness. It describes what happens, not a speculation that requires reflection. The “natural” account is a theory, which speculates on the production of the “representation” out of the “true world” or “reality of things themselves”. The “Two Table” account and Locke’s view of the qualities is the proximate propaedeutic for understanding the zone of fancey the “naturalist” necessarily comes to. It is a worn out and moldy faith.
The hard problem is only insoluble in Western philosophy, because you can't solve a problem using the same means that created it. By trying to solve it that way, you only get into more and more epicycling.
This is a vacant rubric your using to mislead yourself more than others. It doesn’t milead me, since I can see through it. It makes as much sense to return the insult and regard you as a “subjective idealist”, it’s prattle.
I don't know, this subjective idealism really seems mildly psychotic to me, and it seems to bring unnecessary confusion and a sense of being lost.
Well, one must recall, that when Edison brought the phonograph out for public trial a physicist leapt from his seat and pointing the finger of a true believer intoned the words, “Charlton! You damned ventriloquist!!”

As a ventriloquist of Berkeley, who maintend he was against all you just listed as evil, and for plain or common sense, I must say you are very superficial. One cannot trade in textbook caricatures if one is to overcome the natural dread of thinking.

If you answer polemically I'm not going to respond. Is one to simply debate for cheep and shallow political reasons, which have nothing to do with serious minded investigation? Your faith is irrational, stupid, dishonest and ill-informed. Forged through corrosive compulsory education. Schizophrenia is your word for heresy.
The problem is you totally misunderstand what I write. My position is outside Western philosophy alltogether, it's probably not what you think.

And my "faith" is based on the realization that science basically refuted the Western dualistic thinking (ontologically speaking), which mostly started with Plato. That's what my investigation led to. So I could say that your faith is irrational, ill-informed. You need to look deeper.
If you answer polemically I'm not going to respond.
Mmmm but you're the troll, so you are the one who is supposed to make me desperate.

Troll
Posts: 120
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Troll » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:41 pm

“I don't know, this subjective idealism really seems mildly psychotic to me, and it seems to bring unnecessary confusion and a sense of being lost.”
Why do you keep saying “Idealism”. Simply think through the account directly, don't appeal to nonsense title cards. What is “psychotic” about seeing the moon? The question is, what do we mean when we speak of the moon? What we see only, what we see if we are orbiting it, if we are on it, or only, say, what we touch? What is "the moon"?

Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:28 pm

Troll wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:41 pm
“I don't know, this subjective idealism really seems mildly psychotic to me, and it seems to bring unnecessary confusion and a sense of being lost.”
Why do you keep saying “Idealism”. Simply think through the account directly, don't appeal to nonsense title cards. What is “psychotic” about seeing the moon? The question is, what do we mean when we speak of the moon? What we see only, what we see if we are orbiting it, if we are on it, or only, say, what we touch? What is "the moon"?
Ok admittedly I may be totally off on this one, I'm admittedly uninterested to look up this philosophy. So if I gather correctly, first we make the standard Western split-mind (that's inherent in all Western views), then we position ourselves into the mind-substance view, make that one universal.
Ok so in this view if I gather correctly, we add this underlying theme that we see the Moon as sort of how it presents itself to us from this distance. But that can be mildly psychotic to me, because now it is sort of interacting with us, like it was some sort of entity, even if it's just a rock.
And when I think that everything behaves the same way, now that's lonely. We are lost in a gloomy world of strange happenings, and everything is some kind of an entity, alive or dead it doesn't matter. And we are also a strange entity. The sense of separation becomes almost absolute.

uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:00 am

Atla wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:28 pm
Ok admittedly I may be totally off on this one, I'm admittedly uninterested to look up this philosophy. So if I gather correctly, first we make the standard Western split-mind (that's inherent in all Western views)...
Even the ones you can't be bothered to research? Tell ya what; it takes some balls to hang your confirmation bias out and then blithely assert your bias anyway.

Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:24 am

uwot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:00 am
Atla wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:28 pm
Ok admittedly I may be totally off on this one, I'm admittedly uninterested to look up this philosophy. So if I gather correctly, first we make the standard Western split-mind (that's inherent in all Western views)...
Even the ones you can't be bothered to research? Tell ya what; it takes some balls to hang your confirmation bias out and then blithely assert your bias anyway.
Damn right, even the ones I can't be bothered to research. The part you quoted is true for all major Western philosophical views in the last few hundred years (at minimum). I also addressed this in the Hard problem of consciousness topic in more detail. And mentioned it several times in this topic too, mostly to you, but it had no effect. You just can't see past Western philosophy, again you show your ignorance and confirmation bias, project it on me and accuse me of it.

uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:30 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:24 am
Damn right, even the ones I can't be bothered to research. The part you quoted is true for all major Western philosophical views in the last few hundred years (at minimum).
So you know it is true, without knowing whether it is true.
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:24 am
I also addressed this in the Hard problem of consciousness topic in more detail. And mentioned it several times in this topic too, mostly to you, but it had no effect. You just can't see past Western philosophy, again you show your ignorance and confirmation bias, project it on me and accuse me of it.
Ignorance is simply not knowing. It is easily cured by finding out. Confirmation bias is choosing to remain ignorant of evidence that doesn't support what you wish to believe, precisely as you ignore "all major Western philosophical views in the last few hundred years (at minimum)" that completely pull the rug from under your demonstrably false belief.

Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:01 am

uwot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:30 am
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:24 am
Damn right, even the ones I can't be bothered to research. The part you quoted is true for all major Western philosophical views in the last few hundred years (at minimum).
So you know it is true, without knowing whether it is true.
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:24 am
I also addressed this in the Hard problem of consciousness topic in more detail. And mentioned it several times in this topic too, mostly to you, but it had no effect. You just can't see past Western philosophy, again you show your ignorance and confirmation bias, project it on me and accuse me of it.
Ignorance is simply not knowing. It is easily cured by finding out. Confirmation bias is choosing to remain ignorant of evidence that doesn't support what you wish to believe, precisely as you ignore "all major Western philosophical views in the last few hundred years (at minimum)" that completely pull the rug from under your demonstrably false belief.
I know it's true because science confirms it, or more like there is zero evidence to the contrary. So your beliefs are made up. Just because you are moderately ignorant of both science and philosophy doesn't mean that everyone else is too. You didn't follow the evidence enough.

I know you are expecting that any time now, the phone will ring and a committee will tell you that they read your work and they would like you to make a trip to Stockholm. But that is unlikely to happen as you are like 100 years behind.

uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:13 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:01 am
I know it's true because science confirms it...
Don't be ridiculous; science cannot prove that all western philosophy is dualistic.
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:01 am
...or more like there is zero evidence to the contrary. So your beliefs are made up. Just because you are moderately ignorant of both science and philosophy doesn't mean that everyone else is too. You didn't follow the evidence enough.
This from someone who admits they didn't follow the evidence at all.
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:01 am
I know you are expecting that any time now, the phone will ring and a committee will tell you that they read your work and they would like you to make a trip to Stockholm. But that is unlikely to happen as you are like 100 years behind.
I think it is unlikely because people who write picture books for 15 year olds don't often get Nobel prizes.

Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 am

uwot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:13 am
Don't be ridiculous; science cannot prove that all western philosophy is dualistic.
It can and did prove that there is no evidence for ontological dualism. But you haven't been able to grasp this the last 17 times I wrote it.
You also have no ability to view Western philosophy from the outside. It is all dualistic.
This from someone who admits they didn't follow the evidence at all.
You are a pathetic liar, nothing more. I always follow the scientific evidence.
I think it is unlikely because people who write picture books for 15 year olds don't often get Nobel prizes.
And yet you seem to have this attitude like you were expecting it anyway.

uwot
Posts: 3936
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:37 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 am
uwot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:13 am
Don't be ridiculous; science cannot prove that all western philosophy is dualistic.
It can and did prove that there is no evidence for ontological dualism. But you haven't been able to grasp this the last 17 times I wrote it.
That is not the claim you are making. This is:
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 am
You also have no ability to view Western philosophy from the outside. It is all dualistic.
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 am
This from someone who admits they didn't follow the evidence at all.
You are a pathetic liar, nothing more. I always follow the scientific evidence.
Good for you, but this is not about scientific evidence; it is your admission that you assert the above without looking at the evidence.
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 am
I think it is unlikely because people who write picture books for 15 year olds don't often get Nobel prizes.
And yet you seem to have this attitude like you were expecting it anyway.
Well I guess I'm just going to have to live with the disappointment.

Atla
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:51 am

uwot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:37 am
Good for you, but this is not about scientific evidence; it is your admission that you assert the above without looking at the evidence.
Yes liar, Western philosophy is all dualistic, especially in the last few hundred years, this is well known. We may find a few philosophers here and there who are exception, but by and large, and historically, they played no significant role. If you don't even know this then educate yourself, you need to look at the evidence.
Well I guess I'm just going to have to live with the disappointment.
I'm sure that will be hard for you

uwot
Posts: 3936
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:48 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:51 am
Yes liar, Western philosophy is all dualistic, especially in the last few hundred years, this is well known. We may find a few philosophers here and there who are exception...
Well, if there are exceptions, then "Western philosophy is all dualistic" is not true. QED.
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:51 am
...but by and large, and historically, they played no significant role.
Depends on how much influence you attribute to empiricism, idealism, materialism, physicalism, pantheism, phenomenology, just off the top of my head.
Atla wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:51 am
If you don't even know this then educate yourself, you need to look at the evidence.
I have, but by your own admission, you have not.

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