Information does not exist as such

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Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla »

I mean you can also "store information" using the position of matter, so "information" can also be "stored" using holes. But of course holes are by definition surrounded by matter.
uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot »

Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amAll of Western thinking is dualistic on one or more levels, I explained that several times.
You have asserted it many times. That is not the same as explaining it.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amThis way of interpreting reality was thoroughly refuted by the scientific process.
What you are saying is that Western thinking has been refuted by Western thinking.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amDualistic thinking has a lot of everyday practical value, but beyond some points it becomes unusable for interpreting scientific findings, and for deeper philosophy in general.
Which is why many physicists don't bother with philosophy.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amYou have refused to go outside this system, which is normal, because it's hard to understand what the other kind of thinking is like, when you first encounter it.
Been outside and crawled all over.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amI know damn well that any good theoretical physicist knows 6-7 or more interpretations of the same physics. The problem is that they are all dualistic interpretations.
Really? Why is any instrumentalist interpretation dualist?
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amLook at quantum mechanics for example. It has dozens of interpretations and every single one of them is dualistic, even the current mainstream version of the MWI.
Indeed. And any good physicist that wishes to support a particular interpretation will try and devise an experiment that can test that interpretation.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amWe have quantum information theories for example. What a joke.

Or for example all scientific theories talk about the phenomena. But the phenomena-noumena dualism was a misinterpretation in the first place.
And as I have explained, western thinkers are perfectly aware that there is no logical connection between phenomena and noumena. Once again:
uwot wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:25 amThe dominant western philosophy is empiricism, the defining feature of which is that it doesn't particularly care about ontology. Rather than treat reality as a "thing", the basic premise is that 'the truth' is hidden behind a 'veil of appearance' and that any knowledge claims are restricted to those referring to phenomena.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amAnd now everyone with common sense in the West has a culturally split mind.
You clearly haven't heard of henosis. Non-dualism has been part of western thinking since the Ancient Greeks at least.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amAnd there's the problem. On one hand scientific theories don't claim to really interpret their findings. On the other hand the way they interpret their findings does usually become the common sense anyway, the mainstream way of thinking in the Western world.
Yup. Covered that here:
uwot wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:22 amLike I said, westerners, including westerner scientists, believe all sorts of mumbo jumbo. The whole point about empiricism is that ultimately the only things that definitely exists are phenomena.
Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla »

uwot wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:09 pm You have asserted it many times. That is not the same as explaining it.
Could you summerize in a few sentences what you are actually arguing against? Because I think I explained myself several times already (and, no I don't think that henosis is widespread, and it's usually misunderstood for monism anyway).

The point of this topic is that we shouldn't treat information like some sort of new kind of substance or a new kind of matter or whatever. Because it can be shown using empirical evidence that information is just an abstraction.
uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot »

Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:25 pm
uwot wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:09 pm You have asserted it many times. That is not the same as explaining it.
Could you summerize in a few sentences what you are actually arguing against? Because I think I explained myself several times already...
The thing you asserted:
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:32 amAll of Western thinking is dualistic on one or more levels, I explained that several times.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:25 pm...(and, no I don't think that henosis is widespread, and it's usually misunderstood for monism anyway).
Really? Who by?
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:25 pmThe point of this topic is that we shouldn't treat information like some sort of new kind of substance or a new kind of matter or whatever. Because it can be shown using empirical evidence that information is just an abstraction.
Doh! You cannot use empirical evidence to show what words mean.
Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla »

uwot wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:22 pm
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:25 pmThe point of this topic is that we shouldn't treat information like some sort of new kind of substance or a new kind of matter or whatever. Because it can be shown using empirical evidence that information is just an abstraction.
Doh! You cannot use empirical evidence to show what words mean.
You didn't address what I wrote. It's not about the "meaning" of information. It's about whether information even exists as such of itself, or not. You can use empirical evidence on this one.
uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot »

Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:32 pmYou didn't address what I wrote. It's not about the "meaning" of information. It's about whether information even exists as such of itself, or not. You can use empirical evidence on this one.
Really? So what is, or is not if you prefer, information and what empirical evidence can you provide that supports your claim?
Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla »

uwot wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:20 pm Really? So what is, or is not if you prefer, information and what empirical evidence can you provide that supports your claim?
Well you could read the opening post of this topic, and then point out where you disagree?

If you want to show that information exists independently, then the burden of proof is on you, by the way. But you can give knowledgeable lectures on empiricism, so you already know this.
uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot »

Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:44 pm
uwot wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:20 pm Really? So what is, or is not if you prefer, information and what empirical evidence can you provide that supports your claim?
Well you could read the opening post of this topic, and then point out where you disagree?
You appear to have forgotten that we started here:
uwot wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:42 amMost physicists, since Einstein, accept the equivalence of matter and energy. According to quantum field theories, both are simply fluctuations/shapes/patterns/whatever, in some underlying 'field'. In other words, the working hypothesis is that there is some sort of stuff and there are some things which are true about it.
And finished here:
uwot wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:40 pm
Atla wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pmIf it's not smooth then stuff is no longer needed, just the lumps and eddies. But stuff + lumps and eddies is a redundant double vision.
Really? You think there can be lumps and eddies in nothing?
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:44 pmIf you want to show that information exists independently, then the burden of proof is on you, by the way.
Well no, I think the burden is on you to prove that there can be lumps and eddies in nothing.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:44 pmBut you can give knowledgeable lectures on empiricism, so you already know this.
But apparently I can't make you listen.
Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla »

uwot wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 am
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:44 pm
uwot wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:20 pm Really? So what is, or is not if you prefer, information and what empirical evidence can you provide that supports your claim?
Well you could read the opening post of this topic, and then point out where you disagree?
You appear to have forgotten that we started here:
uwot wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:42 amMost physicists, since Einstein, accept the equivalence of matter and energy. According to quantum field theories, both are simply fluctuations/shapes/patterns/whatever, in some underlying 'field'. In other words, the working hypothesis is that there is some sort of stuff and there are some things which are true about it.
And finished here:
uwot wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:40 pm
Atla wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pmIf it's not smooth then stuff is no longer needed, just the lumps and eddies. But stuff + lumps and eddies is a redundant double vision.
Really? You think there can be lumps and eddies in nothing?
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:44 pmIf you want to show that information exists independently, then the burden of proof is on you, by the way.
Well no, I think the burden is on you to prove that there can be lumps and eddies in nothing.
Atla wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:44 pmBut you can give knowledgeable lectures on empiricism, so you already know this.
But apparently I can't make you listen.
Why can't you, just once, not write a complete strawman?

Of course matter and energy can be seen as fluctuations/shapes/patterns/whatever, in some underlying field.

But the burden of proof is on you to show that these fluctuations/shapes/patterns/whatever are not simply a part, an abstraction of that field, but genuinely independent from it. That matter/energy are "distinct" form that field, and interacting with it.

Why do you refer to the field as "nothing"?

Why do you keep claiming that there is no evidence for non-separateness when such a field is continuous? It's the other way around, there is no evidence for separateness.
Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla »

uwot wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 am Well no, I think the burden is on you to prove that there can be lumps and eddies in nothing.
Or do you think that Parmenides was well acquainted with quantum field theory, talking about the same thing? Maybe you need to check your facts on this one.
uwot
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by uwot »

Atla wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:37 amWhy can't you, just once, not write a complete strawman?

Of course matter and energy can be seen as fluctuations/shapes/patterns/whatever, in some underlying field.
This is what you said:
Atla wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pmIf it's not smooth then stuff is no longer needed, just the lumps and eddies. But stuff + lumps and eddies is a redundant double vision.
If it is not your view that there can be lumps and eddies in nothing, you should make that clear.
Atla wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:37 amBut the burden of proof is on you to show that these fluctuations/shapes/patterns/whatever are not simply a part, an abstraction of that field, but genuinely independent from it. That matter/energy are "distinct" form that field, and interacting with it.
There is no such burden of proof on me, because I have never made any such claim. On the contrary, I have said this:
uwot wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:42 amMost physicists, since Einstein, accept the equivalence of matter and energy. According to quantum field theories, both are simply fluctuations/shapes/patterns/whatever, in some underlying 'field'. In other words, the working hypothesis is that there is some sort of stuff and there are some things which are true about it.
Atla wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:37 amWhy do you refer to the field as "nothing"?
Actually, that was you:
Atla wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pmIf it's completely smooth then how can you be reading this sentence now? Wouldn't there just be one homogeneous nothing?
Atla wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:37 amWhy do you keep claiming that there is no evidence for non-separateness when such a field is continuous? It's the other way around, there is no evidence for separateness.
There is no direct evidence that any such field exists. The only fields that demonstrably exist are fields of force: gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces, dark matter and dark energy. We only know they exist because suitably charged, or massive, objects behave in a particular way under their influence. There is no known mechanism that explains any of those forces. In other words, there is no evidence than apparently separate objects are mechanically linked.
Some physicists believe that quantum fields have mechanical properties i.e. they can have lumps and eddies in them. In such a view, which I think is quite compelling, it is not the case "That matter/energy are "distinct" form that field, and interacting with it." Rather the fluctuations, shapes, patterns, whatever, all of which can be termed information, are in the field. If that is your view, then I am sympathetic enough to have written a book, with that as its central premise. Where you and I definitely differ, is that you insist that western thinkers are oblivious to this model and are all therefore dualists.
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Re: Information does not exist as such

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Atla wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:20 pm I described it 2-3 times already in this thread. Well actually the whole thread is about it, starting with the opening comment. Dualism in the context of information leads to percieving the same world twice, which leads to endless confusion and nonsense.
Yes, I can go along with that definition. Dualism taken to a level where it means something other than two units or two types of units, without any further attributes, and viewing information defined as something... yes, I can see how the combination of these two can lead to confusion.

One of the two alone leads to confusion. The two together leads to confusion and nonsense.

I wholly agree with this.

=======================

What is the topic of contention in the discussion between you, Atla, and uwot?
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Re: Information does not exist as such

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uwot wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:52 pm (...)
What is the topic of contention in the discussion between you, uwot, and Atla?

In a few words that I could understand. I have been following this thread, and all I could tell of note in it, is you refute (somewhat successfully) everything Atla says. But there is a painful lack of stance of what either of you proposes.

What is your point, that you want to convince Atla of, and what is Atla's point, that he wants you to accept?

These are honest questions. No trick involved, or traps, only want to see what the point of the contention is.

You see, my aunt Eva and her husband Andor would go into infinitely escalating arguments, and at the crescendo he would scream at the top of his lungs, and get a heart attack, and she would feign to faint, and the astute observer would know that their skirmish started off with opposing views on whether it was Donald Duck of Duffy Duck who first said "Quack quack" to the Lone Ranger, or some similarly trifling matter.
Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla »

uwot wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:52 pm Rather the fluctuations, shapes, patterns, whatever, all of which can be termed information, are in the field. If that is your view, then I am sympathetic enough to have written a book, with that as its central premise.
That is my view, as already expressed in the first comment. What we shouldn't do is treat the field as a combination of stuff and information, that are interacting. It's either all stuff or all information, or information is understood as an abstraction of some/all of the stuff. But they are not literally two things.

So do you agree with that? So you agree with the premise of this topic?
Where you and I definitely differ, is that you insist that western thinkers are oblivious to this model and are all therefore dualists.
I said no such thing in the context of information. Some thinkers, scientists, laymen misunderstand information, others don't. The majority of physicists treat information as abstraction, which is the premise of this topic.
Atla
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Re: Information does not exist as such

Post by Atla »

-1- wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:57 pm What is the topic of contention in the discussion between you, Atla, and uwot?
I honestly don't know.. I asked many times but he never stated it. But now he seems to be saying that he agrees with me.
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