The Struggle for the Soul of America

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RCSaunders
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:53 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:50 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:27 am It's the task of honest men to change reality for very poor people.
Poor people aren't honest men?
It is dishonest to try to put your words in my mouth.
You made a distinction between on class of people, "honest men," who had to change reality for another class of people you call, "the very poor." If they're all honest men, then the poor are just as obligated to change their reality as anyone else. If they aren't so obligated, apparently they aren't honest men.

If you don't like those words coming out of your mouth, you shouldn't have said them.
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Sculptor
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:03 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:53 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:50 pm
Poor people aren't honest men?
It is dishonest to try to put your words in my mouth.
You made a distinction between on class of people, "honest men," who had to change reality for another class of people you call, "the very poor."
No she implied that the rich were dishonest actually. Nothing she said began to imply ANYthing about poor people.
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RCSaunders
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

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Sculptor wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:24 pm No she implied that the rich were dishonest actually. Nothing she said began to imply ANYthing about poor people.
So anyone who is rich is dishonest, and anyone who is poor must be helped by the dishonest. You have wonderful view of the world.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 am There is a struggle going on for the soul of America. Should Americans struggle to regain the principles it was founded upon or seek to transform it into a statist utopia as suggested by others such as Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton
"We do not merely destroy our enemies; we change them."
― George Orwell, 1984

"God bless the America we are trying to create." Hillary Clinton

"We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America." - Barack Obama, October 30, 2008
Is freedom really so repulsive? Is the Declaration of Independence really obsolete? I may be old fashioned but it makes good sense to me.

Preamble to the U.S. Declaration of Independence, 1776
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Are those like Alexis de Tocqueville really so misguided that they need to be reeducated by secular progressive experts dedicated to the transformation of America and the loss of the American soul? Does what he wrote really seem so absurd to you? Are you willing to defend Hillary and Obama’s dream of the transformation of America into statist slavery? I’d like to read on what basis you prefer to live under statist slavery as opposed to freedom?

“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville

“Society will develop a new kind of servitude which covers the surface of society with a network of complicated rules, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate. It does not tyrannise but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
The only constant in the universe is change! It's the selfish hard headed idiots that don't understand this and where they fit into the equation that shall bring about the demise of our civilization and species.

The teacup can only hold as much as it can. History only informs those that understand it. Now if you have a PhD in philosophy, psychology, history, sociology and the earth/universe sciences, to name but a few, you might begin to understand. Unfortunately humans tend to be selfish first, and when mixed with ignorance, have no real vision of any importance universally.

Good Luck attempting to understand my rebuttal. Many 'yappers' here don't have the ability.

One more thing. If the premises are invalid the conclusions are necessarily false.
Last edited by SpheresOfBalance on Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nick_A
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:12 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 am There is a struggle going on for the soul of America. Should Americans struggle to regain the principles it was founded upon or seek to transform it into a statist utopia as suggested by others such as Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton
"We do not merely destroy our enemies; we change them."
― George Orwell, 1984

"God bless the America we are trying to create." Hillary Clinton

"We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America." - Barack Obama, October 30, 2008
Is freedom really so repulsive? Is the Declaration of Independence really obsolete? I may be old fashioned but it makes good sense to me.

Preamble to the U.S. Declaration of Independence, 1776
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Are those like Alexis de Tocqueville really so misguided that they need to be reeducated by secular progressive experts dedicated to the transformation of America and the loss of the American soul? Does what he wrote really seem so absurd to you? Are you willing to defend Hillary and Obama’s dream of the transformation of America into statist slavery? I’d like to read on what basis you prefer to live under statist slavery as opposed to freedom?

“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville

“Society will develop a new kind of servitude which covers the surface of society with a network of complicated rules, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate. It does not tyrannise but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
The only constant in the universe is change!
Are you suggesting that a free society cannot sustain itself and must descend into statist slavery since everything changes?
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:33 am
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:12 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 am There is a struggle going on for the soul of America. Should Americans struggle to regain the principles it was founded upon or seek to transform it into a statist utopia as suggested by others such as Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton


Is freedom really so repulsive? Is the Declaration of Independence really obsolete? I may be old fashioned but it makes good sense to me.

Preamble to the U.S. Declaration of Independence, 1776



Are those like Alexis de Tocqueville really so misguided that they need to be reeducated by secular progressive experts dedicated to the transformation of America and the loss of the American soul? Does what he wrote really seem so absurd to you? Are you willing to defend Hillary and Obama’s dream of the transformation of America into statist slavery? I’d like to read on what basis you prefer to live under statist slavery as opposed to freedom?


The only constant in the universe is change! It's the selfish hard headed idiots that don't understand this and where they fit into the equation that shall bring about the demise of our civilization and species.

The teacup can only hold as much as it can. History only informs those that understand it. Now if you have a PhD in philosophy, psychology, history, sociology and the earth/universe sciences, to name but a few, you might begin to understand. Unfortunately humans tend to be selfish first, and when mixed with ignorance, have no real vision of any importance universally.

Good Luck attempting to understand my rebuttal. Many 'yappers' here don't have the ability.

One more thing. If the premises are invalid the conclusions are necessarily false.
Are you suggesting that a free society cannot sustain itself and must descend into statist slavery since everything changes?
Sorry, I was still editing!

No what I'm saying is that pretty much you're an idiot, because your arguments contradicted themselves. That you unwittingly made the democratic case. That your premises were invalid, thus your conclusions false. Actually your rhetoric was all over the place, such that you seemed to not know whether you were coming or going.

The funny thing is that actually in the past, I thought you were smarter than that. Well I learn something new everyday!
Belinda
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:03 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:53 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:50 pm
Poor people aren't honest men?
It is dishonest to try to put your words in my mouth.
You made a distinction between on class of people, "honest men," who had to change reality for another class of people you call, "the very poor." If they're all honest men, then the poor are just as obligated to change their reality as anyone else. If they aren't so obligated, apparently they aren't honest men.

If you don't like those words coming out of your mouth, you shouldn't have said them.
People need help from others.
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henry quirk
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by henry quirk »

Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:45 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:03 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:53 pm

It is dishonest to try to put your words in my mouth.
You made a distinction between on class of people, "honest men," who had to change reality for another class of people you call, "the very poor." If they're all honest men, then the poor are just as obligated to change their reality as anyone else. If they aren't so obligated, apparently they aren't honest men.

If you don't like those words coming out of your mouth, you shouldn't have said them.
People need help from others.
Joe needs help; is Stan obligated to give it?
Nick_A
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:21 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:45 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:03 pm
You made a distinction between on class of people, "honest men," who had to change reality for another class of people you call, "the very poor." If they're all honest men, then the poor are just as obligated to change their reality as anyone else. If they aren't so obligated, apparently they aren't honest men.

If you don't like those words coming out of your mouth, you shouldn't have said them.
People need help from others.
Joe needs help; is Stan obligated to give it?
That is why John Adams said the American Constitution needs a moral and religious people. A statist slave state decides who will get what while a religious state responsible to a higher authority respects all people as one under God. Of course I'm not referring to secular religions. Either way any state will require obligations from its citizens if it will survive.
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henry quirk
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"any state will require obligations from its citizens if it will survive"

Post by henry quirk »

a damn good reason why the state, any state, ought not survive
Belinda
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:21 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:45 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:03 pm
You made a distinction between on class of people, "honest men," who had to change reality for another class of people you call, "the very poor." If they're all honest men, then the poor are just as obligated to change their reality as anyone else. If they aren't so obligated, apparently they aren't honest men.

If you don't like those words coming out of your mouth, you shouldn't have said them.
People need help from others.
Joe needs help; is Stan obligated to give it?
That depends on the law of the land. The law of the land usually follows upon religious law, in the UK anyway, and I guess in the US too. I don't imply religious law is right, although personally I support the law as it is.
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Sculptor
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Sculptor »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:58 am
Sculptor wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:24 pm No she implied that the rich were dishonest actually. Nothing she said began to imply ANYthing about poor people.
So anyone who is rich is dishonest, and anyone who is poor must be helped by the dishonest. You have wonderful view of the world.
You really need to read more carefully.
Nick_A
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

Malcolm Muggeridge Through the Microphone (1969)
One of the great weaknesses of the progressive, as distinct from the religious, mind, is that it has no awareness of truth as such; only of truth in terms of enlightened expediency.


The greatest threat to the soul of America is its gradual descent into the secular mind. Respect for the eternal values which make liberty possible are being sacrificed to the belief in "enlightened expediency" Will there be enough remaining who remember the direction from which the soul is drawn to in order to make a difference? I don't know.
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Harbal
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:01 pm Malcolm Muggeridge Through the Microphone (1969)
One of the great weaknesses of the progressive, as distinct from the religious, mind, is that it has no awareness of truth as such; only of truth in terms of enlightened expediency.


Anyone who remembers Malcolm Muggeridge, as I do, would not want to live in a society shaped by his principles. He was a sour faced religious bigot.
Nick_A
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Re: The Struggle for the Soul of America

Post by Nick_A »

Harbal wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:01 pm Malcolm Muggeridge Through the Microphone (1969)
One of the great weaknesses of the progressive, as distinct from the religious, mind, is that it has no awareness of truth as such; only of truth in terms of enlightened expediency.


Anyone who remembers Malcolm Muggeridge, as I do, would not want to live in a society shaped by his principles. He was a sour faced religious bigot.


I know he was a womanizer but he did offer profound observations even if he was a hypocrite. Not many Simone's in the wold who live in accordance with their beliefs.

But his description of the progressive mind as compared to the religious mind is worth contemplating. He suggests that the religious mind has consciously experienced the vertical psychological path to truth the secular mind is yet to experience. If true, it explains a lot
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